GRNPA Arrival into KLAS

[ap1 16]

I can't tell if this STAR is runway specific or not.  It looks like it's a downwind leg to the 7 runways however, there are no instrument approaches to those runways, so for this one, I'm kind of confused. Thanks in advance.

[ronzie 21]

I downloaded the full airport plate and diagram bundle from flightaware.com:

 

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAS/ALL/all/pdf

 

There are three ILS and three RNAV and two VOR IAPs.

 

It appears from LEMNZ on the GRNPA STAR you would take vectors from north of the airport probably before reaching LEMNZ.

 

WP LUXOR is about 41ENE  from KLAS. RC would give you vectors shortly after that after you ack the runway from approach. Note also that RC will give you a crossing restriction after LUXOR pretty close to what is depicted on the STAR.

 

Here are the GRNPA waypoints to KLAS as shown via FSBuild;

 

KDEN ROCKI9.DVC HVE J60 BCE.GRNPA1 KLAS/0129

 

(extract)

N3634.5/W11405.0 218 DSC 000000 LAX
KSINO 052 GRNPA1 218 311 311 00/10 01/16 .../... 0069/... 0044/...

N3623.6/W11428.8 227 DSC 000000 LAX
LUXOR 022 GRNPA1 227 311 311 00/04 01/21 .../... 0070/... 0043/...

N3615.8/W11430.8 178 DSC 000000 LAX
GRNPA 008 GRNPA1 178 311 311 00/01 01/22 .../... 0070/... 0043/...

N3610.2/W11438.2 213 DSC 000000 LAX
DUBLX 008 GRNPA1 213 311 311 00/01 01/24 .../... 0071/... 0043/...

N3608.7/W11446.0 243 DSC 000000 LAX
FRAWG 006 GRNPA1 243 311 311 00/01 01/25 .../... 0071/... 0042/...

N3607.9/W11457.4 252 DSC 000000 LAX
TRROP 009 GRNPA1 252 311 311 00/01 01/27 .../... 0072/... 0042/...

N3608.2/W11507.9 258 DSC 000000 LAX
LEMNZ 008 GRNPA1 258 311 311 00/01 01/28 .../... 0072/... 0042/...

N3604.8/W11509.1 182 DSC 000000 LAX
KLAS 004 GRNPA1 182 311 311 00/00 01/29 .../... 0072/... 0041/...

 

I highlighted the heading to and distance to the waypoints and airport for each waypoint  after LUXOR as depicted in the STAR.

 

Here's the path from LUXOR as shown on Plan-G3:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bi7acshu0h4by3z/KLAS%20GRNDPA%20ARRIVAL.jpg?dl=0

 

It shows terrain in the STAR so you may want to do an IAP and vector yourself in or use NOTAMS and stay high with vectors using the crossing STAR crossing restrictions.
 

 

Also look at the LUXOR2 STAR and its separate description page (not in order on the bundled pdf).

[whosyourcaddy 0]

There is a note on the arrival saying "All runways expect RADAR vectors to final approach course."

 

Observation:

A lot of simmers seem to believe that the SIDs and STARs are to followed to the letter. While this is certainly true, it is not uncommon for a controller to break you off the SID/STAR with a heading and altitude for traffic spacing etc. Of course, this is a generalization; I don't know what would normally happen on this particular arrival or in airspace other the US/Canada. It is quite common for the controller to clear you direct to a waypoint along your flight planned route shortly after takeoff to increase the airplanes' operating efficiency.

 

Of course, real world ATC is a beautifully choreographed, numbingly complex machine. It would be very tough to recreate this in the sim world, so we're stuck flying published routes into and out of airports when IMC prevails.

 

Tip:

Give yourself shortcuts when you're out flying around, especially to cut a few waypoints from a SID. If you're using virtual ATC, don't be afraid to ask for shortcuts. In the case of this arrival, vector yourself for a localizer intercept with your intended runway instead of flying the entire approach (only in VMC of course:)). In the real world, vectors-to-final is used extensively.

 

Happy landings

[ap1 16]

There is a note on the arrival saying "All runways expect RADAR vectors to final approach course."

 

Observation:

A lot of simmers seem to believe that the SIDs and STARs are to followed to the letter. While this is certainly true, it is not uncommon for a controller to break you off the SID/STAR with a heading and altitude for traffic spacing etc. Of course, this is a generalization; I don't know what would normally happen on this particular arrival or in airspace other the US/Canada. It is quite common for the controller to clear you direct to a waypoint along your flight planned route shortly after takeoff to increase the airplanes' operating efficiency.

 

Of course, real world ATC is a beautifully choreographed, numbingly complex machine. It would be very tough to recreate this in the sim world, so we're stuck flying published routes into and out of airports when IMC prevails.

 

Tip:

Give yourself shortcuts when you're out flying around, especially to cut a few waypoints from a SID. If you're using virtual ATC, don't be afraid to ask for shortcuts. In the case of this arrival, vector yourself for a localizer intercept with your intended runway instead of flying the entire approach (only in VMC of course:)). In the real world, vectors-to-final is used extensively.

 

Happy landings

Thanks for the reply.  I have to admit that IFR procedures are challenging especially with SIDs and STARs.

[ap1 16]

I downloaded the full airport plate and diagram bundle from flightaware.com:

 

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KLAS/ALL/all/pdf

 

There are three ILS and three RNAV and two VOR IAPs.

 

It appears from LEMNZ on the GRNPA STAR you would take vectors from north of the airport probably before reaching LEMNZ.

 

WP LUXOR is about 41ENE  from KLAS. RC would give you vectors shortly after that after you ack the runway from approach. Note also that RC will give you a crossing restriction after LUXOR pretty close to what is depicted on the STAR.

 

Here are the GRNPA waypoints to KLAS as shown via FSBuild;

 

KDEN ROCKI9.DVC HVE J60 BCE.GRNPA1 KLAS/0129

 

(extract)

 

N3634.5/W11405.0 218 DSC 000000 LAX

KSINO 052 GRNPA1 218 311 311 00/10 01/16 .../... 0069/... 0044/...

N3623.6/W11428.8 227 DSC 000000 LAX

LUXOR 022 GRNPA1 227 311 311 00/04 01/21 .../... 0070/... 0043/...

N3615.8/W11430.8 178 DSC 000000 LAX

GRNPA 008 GRNPA1 178 311 311 00/01 01/22 .../... 0070/... 0043/...

N3610.2/W11438.2 213 DSC 000000 LAX

DUBLX 008 GRNPA1 213 311 311 00/01 01/24 .../... 0071/... 0043/...

N3608.7/W11446.0 243 DSC 000000 LAX

FRAWG 006 GRNPA1 243 311 311 00/01 01/25 .../... 0071/... 0042/...

N3607.9/W11457.4 252 DSC 000000 LAX

TRROP 009 GRNPA1 252 311 311 00/01 01/27 .../... 0072/... 0042/...

N3608.2/W11507.9 258 DSC 000000 LAX

LEMNZ 008 GRNPA1 258 311 311 00/01 01/28 .../... 0072/... 0042/...

N3604.8/W11509.1 182 DSC 000000 LAX

KLAS 004 GRNPA1 182 311 311 00/00 01/29 .../... 0072/... 0041/...

 

I highlighted the heading to and distance to the waypoints and airport for each waypoint  after LUXOR as depicted in the STAR.

 

Here's the path from LUXOR as shown on Plan-G3:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bi7acshu0h4by3z/KLAS%20GRNDPA%20ARRIVAL.jpg?dl=0

 

It shows terrain in the STAR so you may want to do an IAP and vector yourself in or use NOTAMS and stay high with vectors using the crossing STAR crossing restrictions.

 

 

Also look at the LUXOR2 STAR and its separate description page (not in order on the bundled pdf).

Thanks, that helps.  So basically if I have this right RC will pull me off at LUXOR which is about 40 miles I think, and I could do ILS 25?  Now if the winds were suggesting the east runways, would it be smart to do a visual approach to runway 7 or use the ILS for 1 since that would pretty much be east I think?  Thanks again.

Also, should I include all waypoints to LEMNZ?  But LEMNZ looks like for the 7 runways?  Or should I add the points to 40 out?

[ronzie 21]

I would put in all of the waypoints to LEMZ so the aircraft direction is established. You might wish to do an IAP. I did not find a descriptive procedure page for GRNPA but only the similar LUXOR. I did not notice for GRNPA any comment about vectors.

 

The difference between the two id GRNPA is RNAV is LUXOR is based on RAW data (including intersections defined by VOR bearings). RNAV is regarded as more precise.

 

As far as dropping waypoints for efficiency in this area there can be terrain restrictions where corridors are created. In addition, notice for the east runways only RWY 1 has an approach due to terrain. The runway centerline to 7 has to high terrain features. Even the VOR/DME approach is in line with  1.

 

Looking at the 1 IAPs you can see the terrain high spots and "tower" symbol clusters. Also look at the circling minimum altitudes and although not stated circling would be permitted on to the SE and S hemispheres.

 

In an add-on scenery file I have for KLAS some of the parallels are marked closed for landing (RC4 doesn't use this but RC 5 would have) and the 7's have no ILS which makes them a last choice for RC4.

 

For airliners the 7s are too close to terrain obstacles for IMC approaches. As far as RC assigned altitudes which based on average surrounding MSA tiled clusters, you may find RC approach bringing you in high. I see 5700 feet in its database for the ILS based merge.

 

So use NOTAMS and have the plates in front of you.

[David B 53]

Hi ap1 etal. when we fly the Grnpa STAR @ Southwest,typically LAS Appch gives us vectors after KSINO if going to 25L.

 

Usually it's a clearnance direct to PRINO and maintain 8,000.   If we stay on the GRNPA, usually that means we will be doing the RNAV Visual to 19L/R.

 

TRROP is part of that RNAV visual approach.   Hope this helps a little.

 

Best,

David

[ap1 16]

Hi ap1 etal. when we fly the Grnpa STAR @ Southwest,typically LAS Appch gives us vectors after KSINO if going to 25L.

 

Usually it's a clearnance direct to PRINO and maintain 8,000.   If we stay on the GRNPA, usually that means we will be doing the RNAV Visual to 19L/R.

 

TRROP is part of that RNAV visual approach.   Hope this helps a little.

 

Best,

David

Thanks David, that gives me a better idea of what happens on this STAR thanks.

I would put in all of the waypoints to LEMZ so the aircraft direction is established. You might wish to do an IAP. I did not find a descriptive procedure page for GRNPA but only the similar LUXOR. I did not notice for GRNPA any comment about vectors.

 

The difference between the two id GRNPA is RNAV is LUXOR is based on RAW data (including intersections defined by VOR bearings). RNAV is regarded as more precise.

 

As far as dropping waypoints for efficiency in this area there can be terrain restrictions where corridors are created. In addition, notice for the east runways only RWY 1 has an approach due to terrain. The runway centerline to 7 has to high terrain features. Even the VOR/DME approach is in line with  1.

 

Looking at the 1 IAPs you can see the terrain high spots and "tower" symbol clusters. Also look at the circling minimum altitudes and although not stated circling would be permitted on to the SE and S hemispheres.

 

In an add-on scenery file I have for KLAS some of the parallels are marked closed for landing (RC4 doesn't use this but RC 5 would have) and the 7's have no ILS which makes them a last choice for RC4.

 

For airliners the 7s are too close to terrain obstacles for IMC approaches. As far as RC assigned altitudes which based on average surrounding MSA tiled clusters, you may find RC approach bringing you in high. I see 5700 feet in its database for the ILS based merge.

 

So use NOTAMS and have the plates in front of you.

Thanks I just flew this STAR today coming from KDEN.  What I decided is to include the points to GRNPA.  I got 25L.  I used NOTAMS but no IAP.  The MSA I had was 7000 something.  I looked at ILS 25L and changed the MSA to 6700.  Everything went OK.  I intercepted the ILS at 6700 fine.  I was about to get down to 3800 which is the FAF alt.  But the ILS came in OK and had a good approach.  I got a base entry on this.  The chart does say expect vectors, it's in one of the notes.  One STAR that doesn't have a description is the BIG SUR 2 into KSFO.  Overall,  the flight went pretty much OK.