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ZG862

Brain Burp

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Hi all.

 

I'm at the very early stages of planning a single seat simpit, and have been pondering the issue of how to improve "out the window" display whilst retaining the obvious advantage of having a replica cockpit to touch (i.e. I'm not convinced by the OR line of thought).

 

Having never been a Track-IR user, I've taken a look at a few videos on YouTube and frankly really don't get it. You turn your head but keep your eyes pointing forward? Huh? This is not something I've ever done in a real world Cessna.

 

Equally there is much discussion on these forums about multi monitor setups and much chest beating about the processing capacity needed to draw a large FOV.

 

I got to thinking that there is a bit of a Schrödinger's cat thing going on here. If you (the pilot) are not looking directly at a part of the OTW, does it need to be drawn in such resolution, or even in colour? I can't see much above 180 degrees and the last 45 or so either side are apparently B&W (though every time I turn to confirm this they are magically coloured in!!!)

 

It struck me that the theoretical ideal might be to combine head tracking with moving an OTW projector such that it displays its high res image in the direction you are actually looking. It seems logical to assume that TrackIR-type technology configured without angular scaling could provide the necessary control input: A kind of 'external helmet mounted display', if you will.

 

The (first) teensy issue that I anticipate is how to keep the image in focus. Either the projector would need to be gimballed at the centre of a highly accurate spherical screen (which incidentally just happens to also be the point at which you'd want your eyes to be too) or there'd need to be some very fancy dynamic control of focus.

 

 

Is this idea barking mad :Silly:, barking up a wrong tree :Shame On You: or "OMG, why-haven't-you-patented-it!" brilliant? :Big Grin:

 

 

Z

 

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Just mount the projector on your head, that solves all tracking issues as well! :BigGrin:

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Wouldn't this need to be eye tracking?  When I'm scanning gauges real world I'm not usually moving my head only my eyes.

 

 


You turn your head but keep your eyes pointing forward? Huh?

 

I do agree with this and yes it's a compromise ... some try to compensate by making the TrackIR5 overly sensitive as to increase it's motion with smaller head movements, which in the videos I've seen tends to make get sick and also increase their need for higher FPS.

 

I'm not a big fan of protectors, their image quality (even on very high end models) still doesn't match that of good 4K TV(s).  Three 50" or 55" or 60" 4K TVs and 3 Titans would be cheaper and easier to manage and viable here and now -- would provide an exceptional FOV without distortion.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Just mount the projector on your head, that solves all tracking issues as well! :BigGrin:

 

You're right Penz, that's almost exactly the required effect - although it doesn't deal with the focal length problem and does mean that you'd be projecting the OTW view on to the inside of the pit.

With projectors getting ever lighter it could be a comparable weight to a helmet fitted with NVGs, though.

 

I wonder if you'd feel much more of a twerp than wearing a silly hat with a Track Clip on and forever looking out of the corner of your eye?

Wouldn't this need to be eye tracking?  When I'm scanning gauges real world I'm not usually moving my head only my eyes.

 

You're right too of course Rob. The principle that caught my imagination is the notion of progressively degrading the resolution away the pilot's focal point in order to reduce processing overhead and thus keep FPS high. I suppose the "ideal" solution is a fixed hemispherical screen but one with many more available pixels than is being used at any given time. 

 

Sadly, the more I think about it, the more it seems the cost of any such implementation would exceed that of an array of 4K screens and network of PCs to drive them.

 

Hmm. Looking closer to the barking mad end of the spectrum.

 

Z

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The principle that caught my imagination is the notion of progressively degrading the resolution away the pilot's focal point in order to reduce processing overhead and thus keep FPS high.

That idea isn't barking mad at all methinks, for hemisphere display systems and similar high tech gadgetry, some kind of LOD based on visual focus/head position could indeed help reduce workload.

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Ah. I knew it! I need to be working for one of those secret squirrel organisations that make carbon fibre and titanium things for billionaires. :ph34r:

 

Please send job offers by PM. :BigGrin:

 

Right. I'd better take a look at that amateur curved mirror collimated display system that the f15 sim guy made.

 

Z

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Using trackir doesn't mean you'll be looking out the corner of your eye. The sensitivity is such that small head movements scale to a much larger movement on-screen. It can also be adjusted to your liking. Try it, you'll probably fall in love with it. It would be much easier than mounting a projector on your head:)

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I wonder if you'd feel much more of a twerp than wearing a silly hat with a Track Clip on and forever looking out of the corner of your eye?

 

Pretty obvious that you have never used a Track IR,

The amount of head movement needed in relation to the screen movement is miniscule hence you are never "looking out of the corner of your eye".

I can get to a 90 degree side view just by moving my head by 1 1/2"  from center and I don't need to wear a silly hat, just a headset as most pilots do.

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Was if the "having never been a TrackIR user" that gave it away? :)

 

I don't doubt that the scaling of head movement achieves great things but you can't get away from the fact that it is not a movement that any pilot will identify with. The instructors in the school where I learned have always been quite keen to find out who is a flight sim user so they increase their emphasis on teaching them to look out of the windows. You work out when to turn base not by looking at the map but by looking over your shoulder in a motion that nothing to do with head tracking philosophy. I get a view centred on 135 degrees by moving my body just a little more than 1.5".

 

That's not to say that if I get the opportunity I'll not give it a go (I may indeed fall in love) but I'm making a distinction between kidding yourself by emulating the real world or otherwise. I wonder how many professional sims use head tracking?

 

Z

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I think some of you don't really get the thing about TrackIR. It's not just for "silly" looking around, I for example (and many others of course..) need it to decrease the workload needed for switching views in the cockpit, messing around with the hat switch on the yoke and focusing on instruments when on difficult approaches. It's far more than what you think. For me, it's a tool that I would never fly without again. Just my 2 cents ^_^  

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For me, it's a tool that I would never fly without again. Just my 2 cents ^_^  

 

Sorry AP - I've not set out to upset anyone and thank you for your comment.

 

Recreational flight simulation is a broad church though isn't it? Airliners don't really do it for me (with the possible exception of Concorde and that's waaaaaay above my abilities) and I've got a real thing about fidelity. My 'if I win the lottery' setup involves a replica cockpit, a g-seat and (importantly) and enormous FOV. It's the last feature that got me thinking about how to use head tracking to support something that I would want. I'm not saying that TrackIR isn't intuitive or beneficial - I'm merely pointing out that it is not realistic in the same way that a virtual (i.e. rendered on the screen) cockpit is not realistic.

 

This is the general direction I'd like to follow and the purpose of the topic was to throw around ideas about how to achieve optimum resolution in a large display without fighting a losing battle against processing requirement.

 

Z

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I like the way you think, and love the way you talk, :) 

 

It's a thouht provoking idea mate. I'm sure, folks who gave us TrackIR started with such an idea initially. Don't drop it.

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I like the way you think, and love the way you talk, :) 

 

It's a thought provoking idea mate. I'm sure, folks who gave us TrackIR started with such an idea initially. Don't drop it.

 

Thanks Aviacorp! Kind words!

 

I actually posted on another thread about OR and I concluded that the necessary technology is on the horizon but we're up at flight level 500 so it's a fair way away. What I need is something like a very high res version of Google glass. The simpit would then be surrounded by a white(?) dome(?) to provide a featureless backdrop and some clever processing done to only project the OTW view ONLY where there is no cockpit structure.

 

Basic idea is that you look directly at the real stuff and have virtual world projected into the spaces.

 

Well it's better than strapping a full blown projector on your head isn't it?

 

Z

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