What can we do about Flightsim vendors that give industry a bad name?

[brubros 0]

 

 

the product is now based a pay-for-use database and the old product is gone.

 

Sorry but that's just not true.

 

Download their USA terrain mesh for $70 today (what I should be able to re-download for free but they are no longer allowing) and the first thing you see is software installation instructions signed by Justin and showing a 2008 copyright. It's the exact same software they have always been selling (they are just charging more now).

 

As I've already described they do had a newer product line that's strictly for non-USA geographies that uses Intermap technology but that's not the primary issue at hand (unless Intermap tells me next week that no such licensing restriction exists).

 

===================

 

On another note, I find it quite odd that it seems that a contingent of AVSIM community likes to just join in the chorus that there is no such thing as a lifetime membership. 

 

Tell American Airlines that. They still have passengers flying around world first class  after paying $250,000 each on a one time lifetime promotion years back. American now hate that they offered the deal but they are stuck with it.

 

But it's much bigger than that. If we accept crap from the few vendors that work in the FS space then that's what we'll get.

 

Personally, I've gravitated towards ORBX because the people behind that company list their names, you can reach them, they respond helpfully and there is NEVER any hint of feeling ripped off with them. PDMG, likewise, is a serious company with series work. Not quite as accessible as ORBX folks but they put out a great product and they take customer satisfaction seriously. They and similar vendors deserve our support.

 

FSGenesis (and increasingly FSPS) deserves our scrutiny. It's our community after all and I think many of us would like to keep it professional instead of shady.

 

 

Hi,
 
Outstanding my friend...

 

Thanks for the encouragement! We all deserve better.

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

 

 

Download their USA terrain mesh for $70 today (what I should be able to re-download for free but they are no longer allowing) and the first thing you see is software installation instructions signed by Justin and showing a 2008 copyright. It's the exact same software they have always been selling (they are just charging more now).

 

 

If that is true (and I'm not doubting you), there is certainly a fox in the hanger, and the flight sim community has been known to draw and quarter those type of guys.  Man!

 

Me thinks this is just getting going.  I'd email that file to Tom here at AVSIM... not that Tom should be the FS-Cop, but unfortunately for him (and fortunate for us), he's become one.

[mgh 89]

American Airlines are the exception that proves the rule.

 

Since 1981, for every American Airlines there have been  millions of other firms that have have gone out of business leaving their customers, suppliers, and employees out of pocket.  In the vast cases the firms have  run of of cash and there's no criminal intent ,or even dishonesty, at all. It's quite simply when the money's gone the money's gone and that's it. I assume no one is suggesting Justin ???? has criminal intent ,or is dishonest? (Obviously, I have no connection with either Justiin or FSGenesis.)

 

It's naive  to expect a lifetime Galaxy Membership from any firm, especially one selling flight similation add-ons. Most of them are "one man and a dog" outfits with no resources to support any sort of guarantee.

 

Caveat Emptor is still true in these cases.

[brubros 0]

Mgh - couple comments.

 

Problem is FSGenesis makes no representation that they"ve gone out of business. Instead they write on the website that they are under new management. This whole issue would be moot if they went out of business and perhaps that's the only likely outcome.

 

This still iis in fact finding mode but so far it looks as if dishonesty may have been a factor. There also is the possibility that some state laws may have been violated but it's premature to say for certain. And then there is the IRS and their interest in how/if all of this income for lifetime memberships was accounted for. I could go one.

 

But this happens in baby steps and right now the focus is on BBB outcome and InterMap's call later this week to discuss licensing and other issues related to FSGenesis.

 

Last point. vendor beware should be the new truth in these cases not emptor.

[mgh 89]

Let's hope you are able to substantate dishonesty - all you  so have far is innuendo.

 

EDIT

 

From the FSGenesis site:

 

FSGenesis made a move approximately 3-4 years ago to begin purchasing and licensing these higher-detailed data sets to produce amazingly high quality scenery. Starting at this time, no new Galaxy Memberships were offered for sale on our website any longer.

 

 

Why the sudden interest?

[brubros 0]

mgh - I'm sorry. What's your sudden interest in my sudden interest?

 

EDIT

 

Never mind that question. But what you quote from FSGenesis has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. They can terminate offering new memberships anytime they want which they did. Absolutely no problem with that.

 

This issue (and I'm getting tired of retelling this) is about how they treated those that signed up during the time they had the offer. Their treatment of customers are not innuendo - their shabby treatment is fact.

 

As to why I picked this time? Because (if you read this thread which I wish you would) you would know that a few weeks ago I went back to the FSGenesis site to see what new stuff they had only to discover all these shenanigans. That's my "sudden" interest.

 

OK. So, one more time, let's go over why dishonesty may be a part of this ordeal:

 

It could be dishonest if a vendor

 

Offers a lifetime product offer and then not honor the terms of that offer to those that paid even though the company remains in business and under new management. If you want to quote something relevant please quote where they say they went out of business. You won't find it.

 

It's could be dishonest if a vendor

 

Says they lost all your computer records (that's what raised the eyebrow, in fact, of the CEO of InterMAP, the technology supplier to FSGenesis) as a way to terminate previous commitments. Note that this same "kill the computer" stunt was pulled by at least one other FS vendor (if you read this entire thread you can read about a simmers experience from Australia with another fs vendor that did exactly the same thing as FSGenesis - you can say it's coincidence which would be equivalent to sticking your head into the sand in my opionon) so this is not a new trick.

 

It could be dishonest if a vendor:

 

Says on their website (as they do now) that all records are lost but if you supply evidence of your past purchases you will be credited and then entirely ignore people doing exactly as they were told by FSGenesis and supplying prior records only to receive a repeated form letter and no credit for non-membership purchases.

 

Here's an idea:

 

Gerry, here is what I suggest. Why don't you send an email to FSGenesis and tell them there is this disgruntled customer on AVSIM that has been prying into who they are and how they conduct business. Give them a link and then ask them to host a Q&A here and if they are truly innocents then don't you think they would jump at the chance to clear their name and win back customers? Good luck with that.

Edited October 14, 2014 by brubros

[brubros 0]

UPDATE: Better Business Bureau of Utah just wrote me to confirm that they are submitting my complaint to FSGenesis and they have until October 27th to respond.

 

1 FSGenesis can respond (and I'll copy/paste here)

2 FSGenesis can choose not to respond (and their BBB rating goes to hell - which is probably of no concern to FSGenesis)

 

The inquiry to BBB has served its purpose already however. In attempting to get a correct address (the Riverton, UT address on their website is currently inaccurate/fictional according to BBB) and so a lot of discovery took place and new information, some of which I've described in this thread and some of which I alluded to, surfaced in an effort to find a valid address. More on this later.

[zmak 331]

Sorry but that's just not true.

 

Download their USA terrain mesh for $70 today (what I should be able to re-download for free but they are no longer allowing) and the first thing you see is software installation instructions signed by Justin and showing a 2008 copyright. It's the exact same software they have always been selling (they are just charging more now).

 

 

 Just curious why you wouldn't buy fs pilots global for a bit more $$? especially as they are saying up to 9m resolution.

[brubros 0]

 Just curious why you wouldn't buy fs pilots global for a bit more $$? especially as they are saying up to 9m resolution.

Exactly. As I mentioned earlier FSGenesis can hardly be cavalier as their place in the market has become quite competitive where it once was not.

[flyinion 280]

 Just curious why you wouldn't buy fs pilots global for a bit more $$? especially as they are saying up to 9m resolution.

 

I just did that myself.  I was also a galaxy member from FSGenesis.  I actually do still have all of the product including the NextMap stuff that they had released up until just before they were sold to the new guys.  Reasons for my switch though were hearing good things about the Pilots product and also not wanting to reinstall 83 installers about 12-15 of which are manual .zip based installs because apparently Justin no longer felt he needed to bother creating installers to make it easier for the user to install.  

 

The business practices of the current management were the final nail in the coffin that sent me to go support Pilots instead.  Yes I could have just dealt with the large amount of installs since I already had everything, but I wanted to actively support a company that seems to be doing things right.  I'll be permanently archiving the FSGenesis stuff onto some DVD's but I don't expect to ever use them again.

[brubros 0]

UPDATE : So FSGenesis.com domain was administered (owned?) briefly in 2013 (May until August) by Michael (though last name is public record nonetheless omitted here) of eDimensional, Inc. (an apparent games accessories vendor with website: edimensional.com) in Jupiter, Florida and later updated with location of Victorville, California). This was discovered earlier but not reported here pending further research.

 

Today I received an information update that indicates that the same company that briefly registered FSGenesis.com also has a track record with, you guessed it, the Better Business Bureau (California BBB via Florida).

 

An excerpt from BBB report:

 

eDimensional, Inc

 

(760) 513-9090 (Disconnected)15329 Tamarack Dr STE 300 STE 1200, Victorville, CA 92392-6412http://www.edimensional.com/

 

On a scale of A+ to F

 

Example complaint:

 

Complaint: Purchased right hand access controller for XBOX 360. When received it was in very bad condition and did not work properly. When trying to fill out a web site RMA that did not funtion. Tried calling them phone number disconnected. A few day later found out they moved from Florida to Victorville, CA but with only a fax number. Tried emailing the email address I had but with limited response. I told them in the email that it did not work as expected and wanted to return and a credit card refund. This request received no response

Product_Or_Service: Access controller XBox 360

Order_Number: XXXXXX

 

View complete record at: http://www.bbb.org/central-california/business-reviews/video-games-supplies-and-parts/edimensional-in-victorville-ca-1023577/complaints#breakdown

 

------------------------------------------------

EXIT STRATEGY?

 

There's a part of me that just thinks, "OK, if someone verifiably from FSGenesis were just to come on AVSIM and say something like, 'we have heard from our customers and we've messed up a couple of times [specifying those times so we are all clear], we're trying to do better [by doing x,y,z], we can't afford to make restitution to our former lifetime members but we can commit to make [whatever commitments they want to make that demonstrates genuine change]' then, I'm thinking, I have spent enough time on this effort, I'm even starting to get upset at perfectly fine fellow simmers on this forum which is no fun, and, frankly, I don't like where all this information flow is headed (I almost don't want to turn up the next rock coming down the stream I've already started) so I'd like an easy way out is what I guess I was thinking! Is there anything FSGenesis can say to make former lifetime members feel less trashed? Otherwise, how far do I go with this?

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

Businesses like this will often ignore all complaints, bad press, etc. secure in the knowledge that their silence will often wear down the person or people making complaints.  Every so often, someone with guts commits to seeing it thru to the end, even if the end if the company changing it's name or venue.

 

How far you go is up to you, but I commend you for the effort you've put forth.

[brubros 0]

UPDATE : Just spoke with a senior representative of InterMap, the technology provider to FSGenesis' NEXTMap product line. The introduction of the NEXTMap technology in FSGenesis' new product line marked the beginning of the end of lifetime memberships. Here are some of the highlights of our call:

 

1. There has been a definite sale and a purchase of FSGenesis. "We had to write up new contracts with them", I was told.

2. Justin continues to work for (instead of own) FSGenesis but still "lives in his mother's basement". I think that goes back years now - it's also where, you know, I begin to think, is it really worth going after a guy in his mother's basement? But knowing what I know (and can't entirely share just yet) that hesitation is significantly lessened now. 

3. When InterMap attempted to contact the new owner about the issues I raised apparently the owner inadvertently picked the call up then begged off the call immediately saying he was late and, after repeated attempts by the InterMap executive, never did return the call. "There's only one reason why someone won't return your phone call" the executive commented to me knowingly.

4. FSGenesis is currently in "account review" at InterMap. If I were a betting man, based on the facts emerging, etc., I'd say that InterMap is about to pull out of its licensing agreement with FSGenesis.

 

I will share the outcome of the FSGenesis account review with their technology provider here when I receive notice.

[brubros 0]

Kind of off-topic but not enough to start a new one. I was shutting down some monitors and saw some results of earlier research that I thought I would share before killing it:

 

Top 5 countries viewing FSGenesis.com (last 90 days):

 

1 United States 25.12%

 

2 Martinique 14.19%

 

3 Canada 9.65%

 

4 United Kingdom 7.37%

 

5 Belgium 5.39%

 

The FSGenesis website is estimated to have about 3,000 visitors a month.

 

So I was wondering, why would visitors from Martinique, for example, be the second most frequent location seeking out terrain mesh in the FS world? This question has nothing to do with this inquiry. Just curious if this visitor distribution is meaningful in a FS context or just random given the rather low sample.

[zmak 331]

They just started a 50% sale at fspilot shop lol