How do I divert to an alternate (ALTN) what are the procedures?

[megatransat 2]

I dont understand what to type into rte 2 page or what to do in ALTN page. 

[Chewbacca121 0]

How about you bother in reading the manuals that PMDG took a lot of time in making.

[megatransat 2]

I did read the manual and i didnt find what I was looking for. I went into FCOM 2 chapter 11, section 43, page 1080 for ALTN.

[downscc 1,327]

You are confusing enroute ALTN primarily used for ETOPS operations and the destination alternate. Two different things. I assume you are trying to set up RTE2 for your destination alternate... I told you in a different thread to enter origin and alternate destination and the direct route from planned destination to alternate.... I also assume that if you can enter a route in RTE1 then you can do RTE2 so what is your problem again?

 

Note that you will fly RTE1 until you need to divert to alternate so do not EXEC the RTE2 route until needed.

 

//EDIT

 

I just reread your other post and you started by explaining you had three missed approaches and wanted to know how to use RTE2 to navigate to the alternate and suddenly the topic changed to enroute ETOPS alternates... I am confused and don't know what the question is anymore.  FCTM 4.15 has a little bit of information regarding ETOPS and FCOM 11.43.23 explains how to divert using the FMS, which has nothing to do with RTE2 unless you have prelanned routes to enroute ALTN destinations.  So again, your question?

[777simmer 117]

I gess there are different preferences.

 

I use ROUTE 2 so I can pre-program another approach (landing rwy) than the one I have on route 1.

(by the way, Route1 is the same as legs 1 and route 2 is the same as legs 2)

 

Many airports have more than one rwy and it is often not mention on ATIS which rwy you will get for landing.

i.e. ATIS with ILS19L and 19R in use.

or

ATIS with ILS rwy 11 and 16 in use.

 

The most likely approach I program on LEGS1 the less expected approach goes on LEGS2.

(at the start of the flight (or somewhere in cruise if you forgot) make sure you press ROUTE copy on ROUTE page 1. Then, when ATIS is received and you want to program ROUTE 2, use the CDU Dep/Arr page/index/choose route 2/ARR).

 

Another thing I use route2 for is to plan for escape (diversion with decompression) routes in mountenuous areas.

Again, a ROUTE copy must have been made otherwise there is no ROUTE 2.

Then when I get close to, for example, Afghanistan.....westbound......I modify ROUTE 2 (I put in my airways along which I woukd deviate to my enroute alternate) so that I have a visual depiction (in blue=not activated) of airways leading me back to Lahore or Islamabad or Delhi or whatever.

When you are looking at route 1 in the CDU this blue route will not be displayed.

But when you are looking at route 2 in the CDU the blue stuff is displayed.

Quite nice if you are in a stress situation......much better then having to look at charts while flying the airplane!

 

 

The Alternate page is a page where you can see how long it takes to get to your enroute alternate from present position......any alternate for that matter, not just ETOPS......and you also execute the diversion from here usually.

You can also just change the destination in the ROUTE page......but the idea is that you have multiple choises. These choises are displayed on the Alternate page, prioritised from closed to furthest (unless you manually overwrite one of the four choices) so it is easy to execute the diversion from there.

 

Also, the Alternate page lets you choose HOW to divert to your enroute (or destination) alternate.

- DIRECT TO option (straight line from present position, nice for when you are over the Atlantic and want to divert in the shortest fashion to Iceland for example)

- VIA OVERHEAD (will follow the current FMC airways untill the waypoint that you specify.....then direct to enroute alternate from there. This option is easier when diverting foreward. In the direction you are already going. If you want to turn around and then follow the airway you are on, but in the opposite direction, then you have to do that with heading select. When you find the time you would then find then go to the route page and programm the airway (with an entey and exit point) in reverse order. Once that is done you can use the VIA OVERHEAD function again to divert. As you can see this sucks in a stress situation which is why I have that reverse airway pre programmed in route 2 for some critical areas (mountains).

 

Hope this helps a bit.

How about you bother in reading the manuals that PMDG took a lot of time in making.

I hate that answere.........and I will raise that one with......how about me finding this a typical answere of someone not knowing what he is talking about!?

 

Proceding to an Alternate is not as easy as it sounds and I can tell you it took some practice to get it right under all stress conditions over critical areas.

 

The manual does not describe the different things one has to consider.

It only describes what the buttons do.

 

I tried to explain some of it above......but really one has to practice that untill it becomes second nature.

[Mike777 163]

 

 

Then when I get close to, for example, afghanistan.....westbound......I modify ROUTE 2 (I put in my airways along which I woukd deviate to my enroute alternate) so that I have a visual depiction (in blue=not activated) of airways leading me back to Lahore or Islamabad or Delhi or whatever.

 

Very informative as always.  I take it in the above example Lahor, Islamabad or Delhi would be your pre-planned alternate?

 

 

 

- VIA OVERHEAD (will follow the current FMC airways untill the waypoint that you specify.....then direct to enroute alternate from there. This option is easier when diverting foreward. In the direction you are already going.

 

How, in a hurry, would you determine the exit point on the airway (bear in mind that I don't have enroute charts except for FS Commander)?  Is it possible to use VIA OVERHEAD to get on an airway and add the exit point later?  Am anxious to try this out!

 

Thanks very much,

Mike

[777simmer 117]

Very informative as always.  I take it in the above example Lahor, Islamabad or Delhi would be your pre-planned alternate?

Mike

Yes. Delhi being my personal favourite, but the thing is that you are required to go to the nearest suitable airport by regulations.

 

So if you feel you have good reasons to pass by Lahore and Islamabad (good enough to convince your company later)....(or the judge if things get really out of hand).....such as bad weather......performance related reasons such as runway not long enough for the problems you are dealing with........no appropriate approach available, etc etc........then you could go to Delhi

[777simmer 117]

How, in a hurry, would you determine the exit point on the airway (bear in mind that I don't have enroute charts except for FS Commander)?  Is it possible to use VIA OVERHEAD to get on an airway and add the exit point later?  Am anxious to try this out!

 

Without charts that is going to be difficult.....impossible.

 

The exit point on your airway would be there point where you leave your current programmed route and continue on an airway that diverts to your alternate. Since that airway is not part of the original plan it will not be displayed untill tou prgramm it.

 

What you can do is roughly pick a point visually on the ND that is just before your alternate/closest to it/abeam it/whatever....downselect it in the CDU scratchpad and then put it on the VIA OVERHEAD line.

Once you get close to that point you are going to need an airway or direct route (radar vector) to a point on the STAR.

But for the Afghanistan example you also need to know minimum obstacle altitudes for your emergency descend (if you had a decrompression) because you can not just drop down to 10.000ft there (Plateau/mountains).

Those are depicted on enroute charts as well......so without charts.....well you could (and should) use the TERR display......but in real life you are not allowed to determain minimum flight altitudes with the TERR databas only.

 

If you want to follow airways all the way (no direct route) you have to have enroute charts.

 

I do not know FS Commander......that is a flightpanner no?

Does it not come with routes that can be viewed like a map?

 

Do you update your FMC database?

I think Navigraph offers enroute charts as well.

[megatransat 2]

First scenario:

Im cruising in the altantic, one of my passengers is having a medical issue. I need to divert to my etops destination ASAP. Do I fly direct route then. If I fly direct route, will I be assigned a star? How would I type the star into the fmc if my rte1 page is already taken by my actual flight plan. Would I go into the RTE 2 page and make origin my departure airport and make the arrival one my altn airport? If I am flying in a direct line to my etops airport, do i need to follow charts and or am i handled by atc the entire time and vectored to the airport? 

 

Second scenario:

I want to divert to my destination altn because of a heavy storm at my real destination. I already have route typed into my fmc rte 2 page, do i just execute the route or do i need to follow a sid or star, or am i just  vectored or am i assigned a specific route i need to follow?

[Richard McDonald Woods 168]

Hi Andrej,

 

Don't get bogged down in the 'how?' when you are perhaps not clear on the 'why?' !

 

From your previous posts, I believe that you know how to enter a route containing waypoints. So what remains is to plan for things that may go wrong.

 

On a flight within your allowed ETOPS range, you will be advised to know where are your en route alternates that are expected to have sufficient meteo landing conditions. During ETOPS ops (i.e beyond your allowed ETOPS range), you are required to have suitable diversion alternate airports, and their routes, identified pre-flight. For all flights, you must have identified a destination alternate airport with sufficient meteo to enable a safe landing.

 

In all of these scenarios, you are expected to have made sufficient plans to make careful decisions to divert, if necessary. You may, depending upon your company practices, have entered a RTE2 to each alternate airport, and kept it up to date throughout the flight. Or you may have just made written plans of an alternate route for each, or even rely on company provided diversion scenarios for each alternate.

 

Overall, as a captain, you must have up to date 'plans' of what you MIGHT have to do in a variety of situations. This is built through experience and training, and 'thinking the worst' and planning for it.

 

I hope you now realise that there is no single answer to your question. You have already shown that you can use the FMC. Now I suggest that you concentrate on thinking about your possible escape routes should anything go wrong.

 

Please do ask further questions if the help that you have received so far is still not answering your question.

 

Regards, Richard

 

PS I was reading an article recently from a pilot who, in training, worried about his instructor suddenly requiring him to do something for which he had no plans. In his quoted piece, his instructor suddenly said "Divert to XYZ" when he had little idea where XYZ was.

 

His first instinct was to reach for his GPS handset. The instructor said sternly not to use it, but to use his expertise and the aircraft's instruments to fly to, and land at XYZ. He, of course, eventually flew to and landed at XYZ, but was kicking himself for not having thought about the possibility of having to divert.

 

Lesson - be prepared for anything that could conceivably go wrong!

 

R

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Second scenario:
I want to divert to my destination altn because of a heavy storm at my real destination. I already have route typed into my fmc rte 2 page, do i just execute the route or do i need to follow a sid or star, or am i just  vectored or am i assigned a specific route i need to follow?

 

You're over thinking this a little bit.  More specifically, you're somewhat blindly tossing concepts into places they don't belong.  Hopefully the following will help show you how everything fits together.

 

First, what is a route?

It's a link from Airport A to Airport B.  In this case, it's a set of lateral instructions you will follow from Airport A to Airport B to add predictability for air traffic control.  You probably already know that.

 

Second, what do SIDs and STARs do?

They provide standard routes (the S in both of those is for 'standard') to link aircraft between the airport and common route fixes.

 

Scenario:

I want to divert to my destination altn because of a heavy storm at my real destination.

 

Translation:

You're already mid-route, so you've already flown a SID (likely), and you're already on your core route, prior to getting to your STAR.  You do each of those only once per flight - regardless of amendments to your core route.

 

While in the middle of your route, why would you have to fly a SID again?  If I cleared you direct from your present position to another fix further in your route, would you re-fly a SID?  Nope.  Same concept, except you're not getting cleared direct to a fix in your existing route; you're getting cleared direct to a fix in a new route.

 

Procedure:

You: "[ATC Facility], [Callsign] would like to divert to [ALT Airport*]."

ATC: "[Callsign], roger, standby."

You: *waits and doesn't say 'roger' because 'standby' is a polite way of saying "sit tight and don't say anything" *

ATC: "[Callsign], I have your amended clearance when you're ready."

You: *finds pen/paper* "Ready to copy."

ATC: "[Callsign], cleared to [ALT Airport] via present position, direct [FIX/VOR/etc], [new route], [new STAR, if applicable]."

You: *read back amended route - enter the flight plan on RTE 1 or RTE 2, but EXEC and jump on the new route ASAP because the instruction was present position, direct.⁺

 

*Filed or otherwise - just state it and don't say "our alternate" - saves the controller time from looking it up in your flight plan which is either on a strip somewhere beside the display, or on a screen that you have to jump into an extra menu to look for it.

⁺The instruction is "present position, direct," but controllers are taught to expect and accommodate reasonable amounts of delay.  Don't rush, but don't waste time.

 

 

 

This mostly answers your first scenario, too.  In general, destination ALTNs are so close to your original one that the control facility will just put you on vectors to the other field.  If you're mid-route, though, you'll get a full route clearance (as I described above in dialogue format).  Most facilities will put you onto a route they assign, to include a STAR (assigned - even in the United States - but remember that you can always request something else, either in response, or prior to even asking for the diversion: "we'd like to divert to [alternate] with a routing in mind, advise ready").  Different areas of the world handle things differently, so there will be variation.

 

As a final note, when it comes to ATC, just remember that they're really there to work toward a common goal: getting you somewhere safely and expeditiously.  It's not all formulaic, especially when stuff hits the fan, as happens when there is weather.

[777simmer 117]

You're over thinking this a little bit. More specifically, you're somewhat blindly tossing concepts into places they don't belong. Hopefully the following will help show you how everything fits together.

 

I totally agree!

First, what is a route?

It's a link from Airport A to Airport B. In this case, it's a set of lateral instructions you will follow from Airport A to Airport B to add predictability for air traffic control. You probably already know that.

 

Second, what do SIDs and STARs do?

They provide standard routes (the S in both of those is for 'standard') to link aircraft between the airport and common route fixes.

 

Scenario:

I want to divert to my destination altn because of a heavy storm at my real destination.

 

Translation:

You're already mid-route, so you've already flown a SID (likely), and you're already on your core route, prior to getting to your STAR. You do each of those only once per flight - regardless of amendments to your core route.

 

While in the middle of your route, why would you have to fly a SID again? If I cleared you direct from your present position to another fix further in your route, would you re-fly a SID? Nope. Same concept, except you're not getting cleared direct to a fix in your existing route; you're getting cleared direct to a fix in a new route.

 

Procedure:

You: "[ATC Facility], [Callsign] would like to divert to [ALT Airport*]."

ATC: "[Callsign], roger, standby."

You: *waits and doesn't say 'roger' because 'standby' is a polite way of saying "sit tight and don't say anything" *

ATC: "[Callsign], I have your amended clearance when you're ready."

You: *finds pen/paper* "Ready to copy."

ATC: "[Callsign], cleared to [ALT Airport] via present position, direct [FIX/VOR/etc], [new route], [new STAR, if applicable]."

You: *read back amended route - enter the flight plan on RTE 1 or RTE 2, but EXEC and jump on the new route ASAP because the instruction was present position, direct.⁺

 

*Filed or otherwise - just state it and don't say "our alternate" - saves the controller time from looking it up in your flight plan which is either on a strip somewhere beside the display, or on a screen that you have to jump into an extra menu to look for it.

⁺The instruction is "present position, direct," but controllers are taught to expect and accommodate reasonable amounts of delay. Don't rush, but don't waste time.

 

 

 

This mostly answers your first scenario, too. In general, destination ALTNs are so close to your original one that the control facility will just put you on vectors to the other field. If you're mid-route, though, you'll get a full route clearance (as I described above in dialogue format). Most facilities will put you onto a route they assign, to include a STAR (assigned - even in the United States - but remember that you can always request something else, either in response, or prior to even asking for the diversion: "we'd like to divert to [alternate] with a routing in mind, advise ready"). Different areas of the world handle things differently, so there will be variation.

 

As a final note, when it comes to ATC, just remember that they're really there to work toward a common goal: getting you somewhere safely and expeditiously. It's not all formulaic, especially when stuff hits the fan, as happens when there is weather.

Good stuff.......back to basics....just what is required here to turn chaos into order again.....I was wondering what kept you so long since this is totally your kinda thing :-)

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Good stuff......I was wondering what kept you so long since this is totally your kinda thing :-)

 

Thanks.  Yeah, I always like diving into the ATC stuff, especially when it comes to stuff like this.  This is a lot of what we did when I contracted with the FAA.  A couple of the tools actually kept a history of filed plans, and even alternate plans that could be filed by the crew/dispatcher in the event of mid-flight re-routes.

 

So, someone filed this from IAD-DEN:

RNLDI3 OTTTO Q68 HVQ J78 FAM J98 SGF ICT GCK KIISS PURRL2

 

...but also realizes that route might be impacted by weather and files a second option that flies a few more track miles to go through a planned gap in the front; and a third option that routes fully around it.  The system stores all three.  The flight departs normally.  ATC, dispatch, or the crew notes that the original filing will actually be impacted and advises the other parties.  The flight is then re-cleared on an expected route with little scrambling (in theory).

 

Meanwhile, all of these options, since they were known to "the system" are constantly being factored into the traffic management pictures.

 

While it's not fully there yet (it's being slowly rolled in), it's currently out there and people/operators are adjusting.  While it's not used specifically what what I was talking about (above), it could be (secondary options aren't usually evaluated, prompted by ATC or the Command Center until they know of a constraint, but in the case of storms, one has likely already been noted and published as an FCA or flow-constrained area).  This video explains it more from the ATC Traffic Management side:

http://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=572

(kinda cool seeing some of the faces of the guys I worked with)

 

And if you look at page 5 of this link, you can see a pictorial example of something similar to what I was talking about, above (except LAX-ATL):

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/airspace/tfm/tools/Operating-in-a-CTOP-Environment-20140223.pdf

(The rest of it is pretty interesting if you can stand reading it - it's pretty dry, but great info.)

 

Finally, this one goes a bit further into the details of the "bartering" or "subbing" that goes on between an operator's flights:

http://tfmlearning.fly.faa.gov/CTOP_Substitution/res/index.html

(It's not too relevant to the concept we're talking about here, but it's extra info, and it's narrated by the one-and-only Roscoe Lindsey - an RPO at Potomac TRACON - one of the guys who's helped guide me through the "dark side," the hiring process, and all kinds of connections for nearly 5 years now.)