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RJOO SID ASUKA4 errors at PMDG 777

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hello

I have a problem with the PMDG 777 ND.
For example RJOO to RJTT. ( ASUKA-SHTLE-Y71-XAC-Y233-PQE-Y108-KAIHO )
Departs from the RJOO, is taken as SID ASUKA4.
Normally, fly left curve, as PMDG 737 NGX and also of course do real Airliners.
NGX ND show exactly SID for ASUKA with left curve.
Unfortunately 777 ND indicates not as NGX, goes right curve. :blink:
Although the same AIRAC12/14 and Flight Plan use.
This problem applies not only to me, also my friend too.

I have provided first at Navigraph same question.
I enclose his answer below.

It is very nice if you could give me an advice.


OS WIN 7 64bit

Thanks. :rolleyes:
 

{ by navdata » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:04 pm
Hi
strange, but I guess two things - user problem or bug because both PMDG addons use one and the same database. I have looked into the RJOO file:

Code: Select all
SID ASUKA4
 RNW 14L TRK 142 UNTIL 500 FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
 RNW 14R TRK 142 UNTIL 500 FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
 RNW 32L TRK 322 UNTIL 500 HDG 071 INTERCEPT RADIAL 101 TO FIX ASUKA FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
 RNW 32R TRK 322 UNTIL 500 HDG 071 INTERCEPT RADIAL 101 TO FIX ASUKA FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
  TRANSITION SHTLE FIX SHTLE


You see, there is no left or right instruction, 14L/R goes direct to ASUKA (which is a fix left after takeoff - so the a/c must turn left as expected) and 32L/R the same (intercept to ASUKA fix, which is right after the take-off - the a/c should turn right). So, the instruction is clear in my eyes. Again, these lines will be used by both PMDG addons 1:1 - for the NGX and the 777, there is no difference. Possible, that PMDG has an answer of this strange issue ... when you get an answer, please share it with us, when possible!

Thank you,
Richard }
 

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SID ASUKA4
RNW 14L TRK 142 UNTIL 500 FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
RNW 14R TRK 142 UNTIL 500 FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
RNW 32L TRK 322 UNTIL 500 HDG 071 INTERCEPT RADIAL 101 TO FIX ASUKA FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
RNW 32R TRK 322 UNTIL 500 HDG 071 INTERCEPT RADIAL 101 TO FIX ASUKA FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000
TRANSITION SHTLE FIX SHTLE

 

Advise Richard that 14 departues should read "TRK 142 UNTIL 500 TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000"

and this needs testing first. You can test this fix by modifying the rjoo.txt file and verifying that you get the left turn and altitude constraint as expected (I don't remember if the altitude constraint works for a DIRECT FIX but I think it does).

 

The problem is the B777 FMS does not navigate to first fix in SID after departure runway if it is more than a certain number of degrees off runway heading. I think it's about 35 deg. Normally, a departure like this would be written with words that specify the turn so it's not too far off to require the turn directive in the procedure.  Hope this works for you.

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Hi

Thank you for your response.
This problem already existed since FS9.
Of course, with fix data could at the time eliminate them.
But since FSX with the NGX also LVL-D no longer have this problem.
It can simply enter SID data in FMC, then automatically goes correct left curve.
Why can not this latest model 777? :blink:

If possible, I would like to know exactly.
Please someone from the PMDG might reply this.
I've attached two screenshot.

Thank you

RJOO DEP Rwy 32L SID ASUKA4

NGX

NGX.jpg

777

777.jpg
 

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Please someone from the PMDG might reply this.

 

If you want a guaranteed response from someone at PMDG:

support.precisionmanuals.com

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Hi

 

Thanks for your response.

I will try.

 

I have two screenshot attached, unfortunately can not be seen.
Sorry.

 

brgds

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If possible, I would like to know exactly.

 

Maybe this is a language problem. I gave you a solution, and two recommendations. First, try the modification to your sidstar file, and second if it works advise Navigraph that the change is required. I also told you why this may be required for the B777.  I don't know what else you want. If you expect the B777 to act the same way as the B737, it is not going to happen.

 

Full names in this forum please.

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Sorry, English Is not my native language.

1. I have been asked to Navigraph, and got his answer.
    Please see first post above.

2. I use exactly the same latest AIRAC 12/14 for NGX and 777
3. I entered exactly the same flight plan in the FMC for both AC.
4. Nevertheless, unfortunately both of NDs show different SID path? This is my problem. !!
     I hope you have now understood.

I attached two NDs(NGX & 777)screenshot here and hope works this time.

 

brgds

Kazuo

 

TmfGW.jpg

 

9uAof.jpg

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I cannot duplicate the OP's issue.  The aircraft plots the course as the navdata specifies every time.  The data is not entirely correct (and Navigraph is working on a correction) with regard to the turn but the turn is always to the left.

 

 

DJ

 

 

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I do see the same result as the OP departing 32L, a right turn is generated.

 

An old NavdataPro file contains a similar coding as Navigraph.

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1. I have been asked to Navigraph, and got his answer.
Please see first post above.
2. I use exactly the same latest AIRAC 12/14 for NGX and 777
3. I entered exactly the same flight plan in the FMC for both AC.
4. Nevertheless, unfortunately both of NDs show different SID path? This is my problem. !!
I hope you have now understood.
[/quote

 

I see the problem.  You are setting the flightplan from the ramp. FMS does not know which way to turn yet.  When you taxi to the runway you will see that the turn will be correct.

 

For example, if you start at end of runway and enter the flightplan you will see the turn in the right direction. 

 

This is not a problem.

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Thank you for all your reply.

 

 

 


I do see the same result as the OP departing 32L, a right turn is generated.

 

Did you also tested with the PMDG 737 NGX.?

 

 

 


I see the problem. You are setting the flightplan from the ramp. FMS does not know which way to turn yet. When you taxi to the runway you will see that the turn will be correct.

For example, if you start at end of runway and enter the flightplan you will see the turn in the right direction.

 

Always enter your Flight Plan on the runways?

 

Also, I've tested Aerosoft Airbus A320 and Level-D 767.
the result is identical to 737 NGX. ND displayed identical path.

I start at the ramp and after take off from 32L Runway all three aircraft (NGX, A320,  LVL-D767) followed correct SID path. It means that all 3 AC fly / take the left curve, except the PMDG 777.
That's why I wrote this topic.
Is it a bug of 777 FMC ?
Could someone analyze this?

 

Thanks.

regards
Kazuo

Attachments a320 + lvl-D767 screenshot.

AMvnO.jpg

NUCVw.jpg

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I just checked Navigraph forum.
It was seen a few interesting Advice.
It is your advice DJ.
Thanks a lot.

regards
Kazuo

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Hi guys,

first of all thanks for some hints here, regarding the wrong turns or the missing turn information. But I have still open question, which is completely unclear for me and I guess, for your customer too:

 

Before I start with my testings - following startup parameter:

RJOO on RW32L, in every test scenario the FMC was fully configured and ready for take-off

 

Mystery #1:

This line (without the turn directive), produce two different result in the 737NGX and the T7:

RNW 32L TRK 322 UNTIL 500 HDG 071 INTERCEPT RADIAL 101 TO FIX ASUKA FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000

 

Result on the 737NGX ND - flight path is correct, a/c flies the turn (left) correct and follow the path

ex1_737_without_turn.PNG

 

Result on the 777 ND - flight path is incorrect, a/c flies the turn incorrect (right) too

ex2_777_without_turn.PNG

 

Question:

How knows the 737NGX that the a/c should turn left? There is no reference ... ??

 

 

 

 

Mystery #2:

Now the same conditions but with the turn directive, as suggested

RNW 32L TRK 322 UNTIL 500 HDG 071 INTERCEPT RADIAL 101 TO FIX ASUKA TURN LEFT FIX ASUKA AT OR ABOVE 5000

 

Result on the 737NGX ND - flight path looks incorrect, but the a/c flies the turn (left) and follow the path correctly

ex3_737_with_turn.PNG

 

Result on the 777 ND - flight path is correct, a/c flies the turn correct (left) now too

ex4_777_with_turn.PNG

 

Both a/c´s fly the procedure correctly, but the flight paths on the ND are different

Question: Why? How can this happened? And more: how can this be fixed?

 

 

My conclusion is now, that there must be an incompatibility existing between the 737 and the T7. Both addons use the same information, fly the same path but looks different on the ND. I guess that was what Kuzao and some PMDG customer here mean. It´s difficult to say, what happend with the a/c when you see two rings on the ND (in this case, we know what happened - nothing, but that can´t be a general rule).

 

It´s difficult for the data provider too, because we can´t test all such procedures from month to month - and last: I hope you see, that this is NOT a data issue (this issue exists in the default database which is included in the 737NGX/T777 too)

 

Thanks for your time,

Richard

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Both a/c´s fly the procedure correctly, but the flight paths on the ND are different

Question: Why? How can this happened? And more: how can this be fixed?

 

Hi Richard, I haven't had a chance to collaborate with you since our JS-41 effort.  Caveat:  I do not speak for PMDG. Okay, that aside, this happens in the B777 because it is different from the B737.  Even once in-flight, the B777 tracking of the magenta line is different from how the B737 tracks. I noticed this early in beta testing and we passed a few notes back and forth but the way it turned out is the way PMDG intended.

 

You are right, there probably is not a data problem and since the aircraft flies the correct path I don't see the concern with the presentation on the ND... if the PIC has any question then the proper way to fly the DP is hands on or MCP control. It is normal for the ND displayed magenta line to change as airspeed, position and projected path change.

 

If the raw data you are parsing specifies a turn direction that is other than the acute angle, then I recommend using the keywords TURN LEFT|RIGHT DIRECT FIX ABCDE. However, this would apply to any of the PMDG products and is not unique to B777.

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Hi Dan,

first of all - yes, we are a kind of "mammoths" here in the community ... aren´t we? B)

I have optimized the coding now on my side, and the golden key is really the direction directive - but it´s partly very tricky because you can´t "translate" the ARINC424 source 1:1 into the PMDG syntax ... anyway, I will do some more testings the next days before I release a second revision of this cycle. Thanks again for your time Dan and take care

Cheers,

Richard

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