Battle of the Boeings: Milviz 737-00 vs. Captain Sim 737-200

[~Craig~ 10]

At least the CS 737 has detailed lavatory valves.

 

Lol! ... yes, it peeves me when developers waste time and frame rates on modelling toilets in aircraft!

 

It doesn't do a perfect job holding altitude, so I would want to use the altitude hold knob for that. It also doesn't want to hold altitude when I try to combine an existing CWS pitch input with a roll input. It wants to lose altitude in a way similar to an ordinary hand-flown bank without some back pressure on the yoke.

CWS isn't intended to hold altitude;  ALT HOLD would always be used for that.  And with that in mind, you're right, the CWS does 'lose' or 'gain' altitude during turns.    I guess this is because it's not a fly-by-wire system, or any sort of digital system;  just a mechanical way of setting pitch, steeped in 60s technology and limitation.

 

Regarding what you're saying about the need to return the controller to 'center' after each movement - yep, absolutely you're on to something.  That's exactly what I do with it.  Small, smooth, gentle yoke movements, and then straight to center (at which point it trims for the new pitch).

 

I think you're getting there!

[Tim_Capps 474]

I spent an hour just flying in a straight line, trying to climb to an altitude and then descend to another. Initially setting climb is easy. You just pull back and hold, and the climb needle will settle on a reading more or less what you intended. I say "more or less" because it will usually drop from where you set it by 500 feet or so, but you can fine-tune it the first time you use it to set climb.

 

When I try to level off, though, that's when the problems begin. I was never once able to get within 400 feet of the intended level off altitude, and often it was more. Since I'm climbing, I push forward. The trim wheel spins.. it's actually fighting me. That's not going to work. I release, now I'm climbing at a higher rate. Worse, when I try pulling back to disengage, it may or may not let go of the climb. Most of the time, it settles on climbing at a great V/S. Great. If I continue to fiddle with it, it may eventually disengage, but will often suddenly "break loose" and plunge the aircraft into a dive. At best, there is no way to accomplish it smoothly.

 

This was the story for all my experiments. I could never get it to level off. Much easier to just fly the thing with trim.

• performance of CWS grossly inconsistent
• CWS likely to initiate uncommanded dive that could endanger the aircraft by overspeed or impact with terrain

CWS is broken. There are just too many broken things with this airplane to keep it in my hanger where I'll be tempted into another frustrating session. I've given it every chance.

[CoolP 283]

Tim, did you already write on the 1011 btw? Is she better in regard to some still existing bugs? I don't have her yet, hence my question (and thread hijack).

[BrianG 12]

When trying to level off at a certain altitude after climbing, when you're in a positive VS and reach the desired altitude, hit the Alt hold button. It will take a few seconds but will level and hold that altitude when the Alt hold button was pressed.

The whole thing isn't real smooth. I give it very small nudges and wait for it to respond as there's a delay sometimes.Then fine tune again in the same manner if necessary. It takes a bit to get used to it. That's just the way its modeled. But it works well for me. No surprises on my end. Be very gentle and easy with it- then wait and see how it responds.

[~Craig~ 10]

When trying to level off at a certain altitude after climbing, when you're in a positive VS and reach the desired altitude, hit the Alt hold button. It will take a few seconds but will level and hold that altitude when the Alt hold button was pressed.

The whole thing isn't real smooth. I give it very small nudges and wait for it to respond as there's a delay sometimes.Then fine tune again in the same manner if necessary. It takes a bit to get used to it. That's just the way its modeled. But it works well for me. No surprises on my end. Be very gentle and easy with it- then wait and see how it responds.

 

Agree.    You wouldn't normally be attempting to set the airplane into a held altitude using the CWS;  that's what Alt Hold is for.  As you approach your target altitude, just reduce your climb rate, then at target altitude select Alt Hold.   Try assigning the default keyboard command for "AP_ALT_HOLD" to a key, and press this.   I'm sure it's binded on the CS737 and it's a more secure way of setting the mode (Captain Sim mouse clicks can be unreliable and odd;  look at how yukky the heading knob turning is on this plane!).

I'm sorry you're still having problems with the CWS, but I disagree with the comment that "it's broke".   A number of us have said a few times, that it's one of the one things that works well on this aircraft.

[Tim_Capps 474]

If it was not "broke" one would expect it to operate in pitch roll as it does in roll mode, correct? With roll mode there is no magic technique needed. You turn, wait, and it's set. (Well, it turns back to center, then returns, which isn't that big of a deal.) You turn out of it -- the wheel gives a slight "hitch" -- and turn into another input, which is held as before. Why can't pitch be as reliable? Anyway, I'm pleased some find it working to their satisfaction. At the end of the day, Milviz has the better 737 for now. If CS fixes their 737 it will be a thing of beauty.

 

My solution to all these problems is to fly the Milviz instead. With their clean interior mod it's quite nice. Plenty of North American liveries, even if they're relatively few elsewhere.

[Tim_Capps 474]

Just to close out this comparison, I've finally decided that one is better than the other. What the Milviz may lack in visual glitz it makes up for in getting the basics right. No magic touch required with the CWS, for example. It just works nicely. After flying each for awhile, there is just no comparison there, and that tips the scales in favor of the Milviz.

 

I am confident that if Captain Sim ever finishes their product, we'll finally have the 737-200 we've always wanted.

 

One caution about the Milviz. I have run into OOM errors and crashes while using the FMS. The FMS itself is a surprisingly capable device that can even do SIDs and STARs. It does not have a big screen, of course; it's all text. If you don't trust your radio navigation skills, though, it gets the job done. I still prefer the old Sperry 77, though.

[ray hughes 165]

Tim, like you I ended up mainly using the MILVIZ 732 - and mostly hangering the CS732. I suspect that a service pack will eventuate sometime in the distant furture...

The one glitch that still bugs me with the Milviz is the way the aircraft jerks into a bank when you set a new heading. Very uncomfortable for the co-pilot and his martini. :rolleyes:

[~Craig~ 10]

mostly hangering the CS732. I suspect that a service pack will eventuate sometime in the distant furture...

Really? ...... I would be gobsmacked if CS bothered to patch it now. It's a 2012 release for them, and historically they tend to cease developments after a matter of months, if not weeks, moving on to the next product.

[Tim_Capps 474]

According to Captain Sim, they still are planning an update.

 

And it is not strictly true that they abandon all projects. The current 757 went through several updates and ultimately a rewrite of the code to eliminate reliance on FSUIPC that was at the root of some of the most intransigent problems. It's a very nice airplane now, I think their best.

 

Their 727, on the other hand has clearly been abandoned with its too-fast trim, battery problem and other issues I don' t even remember at this date. Mind you, I still think it's worthwhile to own, at least for me, but has never been quite finished.

 

Which route will the 737 take? By now only the truest of true believers think it will be fixed.

 

As for my Milviz 737, I flipped and I flopped, and finally got my refund from Flight 1, and then immediately bought it again LOL. I haven't had a regret. I think if some of the folks satisfied with the CS CWS could get 30 minutes in the Milviz, they'd realize just how wrong CS got the pitch control.

To CoolIP: I didn't yet. I ought to take the time and do up several reviews. I find being a reviewer too much like work :smile: . But still, I enjoy doing them on my terms. I thought the L1011 was fabulous. I liked the INS-lite feature where it just imported a flight plan. Yes, I know many will turn up their nose at that, but, frankly, working the CIVA INS was a lot like work, too. I'm just a survey simmer. I bounce around from airplane to airplane and unless you stay up on that stuff you end up starting from scratch (at least at my age). Half the time I just fly big circuits around Seattle to practice the airplane.

 

When it came out there seemed to be, after the usual grousing, a grudging acknowledgement that they had a good airplane on their hands in the L1011. It's just beautiful, too.

[CoolP 283]

 

 

According to Captain Sim, they still are planning an update.

I think they also say that on the 727 and 707. :mellow:

 

But you have a very good point on the sort of fixed 757 and 767. Although this very fixed status still is in question at times, at least on Avsim.

 

Well, if you ever find the time and motivation to start reviewing the 1011 releases, let us know. Maybe you even add that new Pro edition to your lineup. Until then, have fun flying the 737s. :smile:

[~Craig~ 10]

I think if some of the folks satisfied with the CS CWS could get 30 minutes in the Milviz, they'd realize just how wrong CS got the pitch control.

 

Is the issue not that the CS737 CWS doesn't work for you though (which I appreciate must be frustrating) rather than "how wrong CS got the pitch control" ?    

 

I flew 6 hours in a Level D 732 simulator in Yorkshire, England 8 years ago, fitted with the same Sperry 77 AP and honestly, the CS 737 CWS for me, is a perfect replication.  The amount of yoke pressure to change pitch, the timings in response by the trim wheel, and the subsequent accuracy in holding pitch (which is not always exact, due to it's analogue nature).

 

The MV 732 however, I don't get correct CWS operation, because when I stick on the AP it seems to engage default logic FSX alt hold.

 

Perhaps CWS is just a mystical force in flight simulation, that works for some, on some models, but not for others, in other models!

 

In all honesty though, I do think you are unfairly judging a feature/product across the board, alluding that it has objective problems, whereas the evidence seems to suggest the problems you're seeing are subjective (to you).

 

You've seen plenty of proof and anecdotes on this thread from people who simply do not have the problems you have, with the CWS.

[JB3DG 225]

deleted by poster

[Tim_Capps 474]

Any reviewer, official or otherwise, can only report and form opinions on his experiences with the aircraft, after due diligence, of course. As you are familiar with the Captain Sim forums, you will no doubt be aware that I am not the only one having issues with their 737. So, yes, I am entirely comfortable reporting a wonky CWS because I gave it a fair chance, determined I was not the only one having problems, and found the competitor's CWS to work in a predictable and enjoyable fashion.

 

Even Captain Sim concedes that their 737 is in need of a update, and has apologized for the delay. (They have not mentioned any specific issues, nor a target date.) I'm sure you would not say the PDCS works without crashing the sim, for example.

 

There's an old saying, the cure for bad speech is more speech. It may be a stretch to call my little comparison "bad speech," even from your perspective. However, the point is that if you believe my reporting was unfair, you have provided a contrary opinion, and that's great. Now readers can say, "Well, perhaps it doesn't work right for some people, but this fellow seems to think it's just fine." Then they can pay their money and take their chance or not.

 

I've never written a review that everybody agreed with, so I respect your opinion.

 

What DOES seem to work well is Captain Sim's CWS in their L1011. So what's the difference? Who knows? I have to call 'em as I see 'em. But I'm sincerely happy for you that you are able to enjoy the CS 737 because it is in other regards a beautiful little airplane.

 

I'm still laughing, though, because the last thing I ever thought I would be called on AVISM is "unfair" to Captain Sim I salute you, fellow Captain Sim Defender!

[n4gix 4,947]

The MV 732 however, I don't get correct CWS operation, because when I stick on the AP it seems to engage default logic FSX alt hold.

Which autopilot, Craig? There is not one bit of "default logic' in the SP77 version at all. CWS only works properly with the ALT HLD mode totally off, otherwise it only holds the current altitude at time it's enabled. Pulling or pushing on the yoke will disconnect ALT HLD mode and revert to pitch hold mode.