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JoeDiamond

Can't feather props in flight?

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Attempted to shut down an engine in flight.  Condition lever to emergency shutoff and pressed the stop button.  Gauges indicate zero RPM but the propeller never stops turning.

 

Is proper single engine behavior modeled in this airplane?


Joe Diamond

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We had to make a choice about this during development:

 

We could either have the props feather, or we could accurately implement the NTS system. We couldn't do both due to FS limitations. So we chose the NTS system, which is unique to the Garretts.

 

In the event of an engine failure in flight, the NTS system will automatically pitch the blades to maintain zero torque. Although you are correct that in the real aircraft, pulling the condition lever to emergency stop will, in fact, fully feather the propeller.

 

Hope this answers your question! 

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Joe

Chief Pilot & Lead Tester - Flysimware Simulation Software

Commercial Pilot ASEL/AMEL/CFI/AGI/EMB-505/LR-JET

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That would have been nice to know before making the purchase.  Being unable to feather a prop is hardly an insignificant detail.


Joe Diamond

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Could you implement a button to feather the props?  Most prop controls have a button at the bottom position.  Only a suggestion...maybe.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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It's a glaring omission for a product that claims to have "in depth" systems modeling.  What's the point of modeling the details if the basics aren't there?


Joe Diamond

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It's a glaring omission for a product that claims to have "in depth" systems modeling.  What's the point of modeling the details if the basics aren't there?

 

 

It's a glaring omission for a product that claims to have "in depth" systems modeling.  What's the point of modeling the details if the basics aren't there?

 

 

Well sometimes you have to make compromises when you develop an aircraft. We are trying to bring to you systems and simulation components which have never been seen before in flight simulator, and we have. Many, many satisfied customers have praised our engine simulation. Most aircraft simulations on the market today are NOT designed to simulate emergency situations. There is one particular aircraft that comes to mind which offers no emergency or failure simulation at all, and is one of the best selling products of all time...with a price tag of $70.00.

 

This is a flight simulator. There are going to be certain factors that you simply cannot recreate, or a compromise will have to be made.

 

I suspect had we chosen to have feathering propellers, but no NTS system, that you would've had the same complaint.

 

That would have been nice to know before making the purchase.  Being unable to feather a prop is hardly an insignificant detail.

 

Not having an operating NTS system on a Garrett engine is hardly a significant detail as well. I suspect had we chosen to have feathering propellers, but no NTS system, that you would've had the same complaint.

 

Please provide me with your name and order number.


Joe

Chief Pilot & Lead Tester - Flysimware Simulation Software

Commercial Pilot ASEL/AMEL/CFI/AGI/EMB-505/LR-JET

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Well sometimes you have to make compromises when you develop an aircraft. We are trying to bring to you systems and simulation components which have never been seen before in flight simulator, and we have. Many, many satisfied customers have praised our engine simulation.

 

You have done a fine job simulating the NTS system, that is not my complaint.  I applaud your innovation given the limitations that FSX imposes on developers.

 

What is at issue is the lack of information regarding the limitations of such a compromise.  When one purchases a simulation of a multi-engine airplane it is reasonable to expect it to simulate all aspects of multi-engine flight including single engine operations.  For me personally it's a deal breaker and I would not have purchased the aircraft had I known about it.  For others it may not make a difference.  In either case the buyer could make an informed decision had the information been available.

 

Name and order number will be sent via PM.


Joe Diamond

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You have done a fine job simulating the NTS system, that is not my complaint. I applaud your innovation given the limitations that FSX imposes on developers.

 

 

 

What is at issue is the lack of information regarding the limitations of such a compromise. When one purchases a simulation of a multi-engine airplane it is reasonable to expect it to simulate all aspects of multi-engine flight including single engine operations. For me personally it's a deal breaker and I would not have purchased the aircraft had I known about it. For others it may not make a difference. In either case the buyer could make an informed decision had the information been available.

 

 

Full disclosure, I haven't bought this airplane yet...got my hands full at the moment, but I've got my eyes on it based on what I'm reading.

 

It's pretty rare for a developer to do that kind of disclosure, I think.  There are so many things that you have to compromise on when you develop an airplane.  You do everything you can to make it right but there are always sacrifices.  If Carenado ever did that the list would be a pretty long read for some of their planes.  What might be worse in this case is for someone to not do the NTS and do the feather. 

 

It's also pretty rare for a developer to offer to do a shared cockpit training session...probably one of the nicest and coolest ideas I've heard.


Gregg Seipp

"A good landing is when you can walk away from the airplane.  A great landing is when you can reuse it."
i7-8700 32GB Ram, GTX-1070 8 Gig RAM

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Mr. Seipp's comments and observations  are right on target for this simulation. Most serious flight simmers are aware (or should be aware) of FSX limitations and compromises that must be made with complex aircraft. This is a solid aircraft that handles like a smooth Kentucky Bourbon. Since the FSX architecture requires compromises on occasion, I'd rather have the NTS feature that will be used on every flight instead of an airborne prop feather that hopefully is never used in one's career.  

 

I had the opportunity today to take advantage of Flysimware's offer for the cockpit training session (via multiplayer and teamspeak). Thanks to Joe's extensive real-work knowledge and experience with the C441, the training session is an extraordinary and unique opportunity for the serious folks in the flight sim community to better the character of this Cessna Queen. 

 

Les Parson

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In my aviation experience, I've never seen a feathered propeller ever. With the exception of a free-turbine shut down. (Let's not jynx it...I'd rather not see one any time soon).

 

The only person on this thread who has ever seen a 441 feathered is Joe, who has tons of experience on the actual aircraft.

 

I'm not hear to point fingers, however this is the most realistic aircraft with TPE331 engines in FSX. Period. Others have come close but none to this extent. I do believe this attack as a little unfair.


Cameron Caldwell

CPL (A)

King Air 200 Pilot

 

 

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I'm not hear to point fingers, however this is the most realistic aircraft with TPE331 engines in FSX.

 

Sure, so long as you don't try and shut one down in flight.

 

If you are looking for something to simulate normal operations it's great.  If you want something that you can practice single engine operations in, don't buy this airplane.


Joe Diamond

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In either case the buyer could make an informed decision had the information been available.

Do you really think vendors of domestic flight sim products should have to list every single real world feature that is not functional in the sim?     Your expectations may be a bit high there.   In any case, they have offered you a recourse/refund - can't see fairer than that.

 

Personally, I'd much rather nave NTS simulated, that I'm going to use on every flight, rather than feathering props that I'm never going to use.  

 

If you want something that you can practice single engine operations in, don't buy this airplane.

No that's just your subjective opinion.  There are still procedures you can practice with the plane on single engine; do you think instructors feather the prop during training? .... or normally just pull back the power to simulate a lost engine?

This is a brand new development by a new team, offering something that no-one else is offering, so I think your black & white view of them (based purely on what you want), and telling people not to buy it if they want this and that, is a little harsh.

 

They've offered you a refund, so why not be a bit more sporting and say 'thanks, it wasn't for me', rather than inflating the value of your opinion about the product.

  

I do believe this attack as a little unfair.

Although I wouldn't see it as an attack as such, I do agree that the spirit is a bit mean and self-aggrandizing.  

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There are still procedures you can practice with the plane on single engine; do you think instructors feather the prop during training? .... or normally just pull back the power to simulate a lost engine?

 

Simulate a simulated engine failure?  Seems a bit redundant.  The reason you don't feather the prop in the real plane is because of the obvious hazards involved.  The whole purpose of a simulator is to experience things you can't or shouldn't do in the real airplane.

 

 

 


Your expectations may be a bit high there.

 

Expecting to be able to feather a prop on a multi engine airplane seems well within reason.

 

 

 


In any case, they have offered you a recourse/refund - can't see fairer than that.

 

While a request was made for my order information, there has been no offer of a refund at this time.  In fairness I have not received a response yet so that may very well be their intention.  In any case I have not asked for nor do I expect one.  I made a purchase knowing that all sales are final.  However, I will make my opinion known so others can decide if it's important to them prior to making their purchase.


Joe Diamond

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Expecting to be able to feather a prop on a multi engine airplane seems well within reason.

 

Not if you understand the limitations of the underlying simulator, it is FSX at fault here not the developers. you know that now but still refuse to cut them some slack.

Out of interest which addons do you own that you consider contain flawless modeling of a Garret turboprop.

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Not if you understand the limitations of the underlying simulator, it is FSX at fault here not the developers. you know that now but still refuse to cut them some slack.

 

I'm well aware of and understand the limitations imposed by FSX.  If you read my prior comment you would see that I have already acknowledged that they have done a great job modeling the NTS given the limitations they imposed by the sim.  However, a major compromise had to be made to achieve that.  It's not some little compromise like the RPM and temps are off a bit...you can't feather the prop! If you can't have NTS and proper feathering than a proper Garret simulation can't be done, period.  They chose to accept a compromise that introduced a major flaw into their product.  They made that choice.  I didn't have the choice as the consumer to decide if that compromise was acceptable to me because it was not disclosed.

 

If that on it's own were the only issue I could live with it but combined with the graphic quality being several years behind other add ons in this price range the value of this product fails to live up to the amount they are asking for it.  If you are going to price your products like A2A or RealAir your products needs to be able to run with the big boys, and this one can't

 

Just my opinion as a consumer.

 

 

 


Out of interest which addons do you own that you consider contain flawless modeling of a Garret turboprop.

 

You and I both know such an addon does not exist...and still doesn't


Joe Diamond

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