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Carenado citation first review?

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The FMS is disappointing, and can't really even be considered a FMS at all, in this aircraft.

 

But it's not balanced to reflect the whole aircraft based on the FMS.   There are some great things about the aircraft, aside from the (lack of) FMS. 

 

It has great texturing, much better interior and switch sounds than all previous Carenado aircraft, nice engine sounds, a good EADI, EHSI and (not bad) MFD, FDE seems pretty good, and most basic engine systems and indications seem ok.

 

I've added the F1 GTN750 as a pop-up, and I'm having a whale of a time with it.   It's a good plane I reckon, although I definitely agree, overpriced.     It should have been $29.95 IMHO, not $44.95.     I was a sucker because I love Citation IIs, and hte Eaglesoft one is just too old now, texturally speaking. :smile:

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As is, it meets the wants/needs of only untrained hobbyists, which most in this community are.

 

Leaving aside whether that's a true statement or not, I would think even your "untrained hobbyists" would be a bit put off by the price, as it's well above "I just want to fly" levels.  At this price point most of us expect more.  Other vendors are doing some extraordinary things for this kind of money.

 

Scott

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Guest BeaverDriver

Craig, the Citation 550 is, from all accounts, a good short field machine. If you have a minute, and flying by the numbers, could you try a takeoff from a 3500 ft runway with a medium load and climb to FL390 (not a max performance climb, but a reasonable cruise-climb) and post your impressions here? That would really help some of us decide on the FDE's, which are the most important thing. It would be important to make sure all the engine gauges stay in the green throughout the flight. If you feel like it, landing on a 3500 ft runway at the end of the flight would be a bonus.

 

If you can manage that time-wise, that would be just great. Thanks in advance.

 

PS - I too disagree that most here are untrained hobbyists. There are a lot of RW pilots, in all kinds of airplanes with all kinds of knowledge buying these airplanes. Otherwise you wouldn't see the bugs listed you do. Sadly, at this point Carenado are the only game in town for many of these aircraft, so we have little choice but to buy, and then rely on a few really talented people here to help fix some of the bugs that never should have "left the factory". Thank goodness for them or Carenado might be distant memory by now ;).

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Craig, the Citation 550 is, from all accounts, a good short field machine. If you have a minute, and flying by the numbers, could you try a takeoff from a 3500 ft runway with a medium load and climb to FL390 (not a max performance climb, but a reasonable cruise-climb) and post your impressions here? That would really help some of us decide on the FDE's, which are the most important thing. It would be important to make sure all the engine gauges stay in the green throughout the flight. If you feel like it, landing on a 3500 ft runway at the end of the flight would be a bonus.
 
If you can manage that time-wise, that would be just great. Thanks in advance.

 

I'll certainly see what I can do, Glenn.

 

From the (literally) couple of flights I've made so far, I'd say that hte climb performance is pretty spritely and feels convincing.    However take-off rolls definitely don't feel very short field.   I think rather than this relating to power and trust, it;s perhaps more to do with drag/lift settings in the FDE.    It seems quite a hesitant aircraft to rotate.  but once it's off, IT'S OFF!   :smile:

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The climb performance is like an old truck.....the climb rate between FL180 and FL240 was not more than 1200ft/m after my first flight. After reaching FL240 the aircraft speeds up and then you can climb again to a higher level so step climbs are more then recommended ;-)

 

And just to confirm that in the FMS I have no chance to check for example the ILS frequ. of my destination airport. At least in the PC-12 from Carenado i can check this via the airport info

 

Cheers,

Mark

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Craig, the Citation 550 is, from all accounts, a good short field machine. If you have a minute, and flying by the numbers, could you try a takeoff from a 3500 ft runway with a medium load and climb to FL390 (not a max performance climb, but a reasonable cruise-climb) and post your impressions here? That would really help some of us decide on the FDE's, which are the most important thing. It would be important to make sure all the engine gauges stay in the green throughout the flight. If you feel like it, landing on a 3500 ft runway at the end of the flight would be a bonus.

 

If you can manage that time-wise, that would be just great. Thanks in advance.

 

PS - I too disagree that most here are untrained hobbyists. There are a lot of RW pilots, in all kinds of airplanes with all kinds of knowledge buying these airplanes. Otherwise you wouldn't see the bugs listed you do. Sadly, at this point Carenado are the only game in town for many of these aircraft, so we have little choice but to buy, and then rely on a few really talented people here to help fix some of the bugs that never should have "left the factory". Thank goodness for them or Carenado might be distant memory by now ;).

Hello Glenn,

 

I was looking for a place in the forums to post my initial impressions. Looks like this is as good a place as any. I read about Rob's no flap, partial power then overboost takeoff for his video so I paid special attention to the takeoff run.

 

I chose KPDX for my initial flight and used 7 deg flaps and the favored runway with a gentle breeze on my nose. I was trimmed for TO and used full power. I was off the ground in about 1500 - 1600 feet by checking the runway markers. I set the initial climb for 3,000 FPM and held that up to about 8,000 feet and toned in down to 2,000 FPM.

 

I went to FL350 for a speed and fuel burn test. Everything I touched or looked at seemed to work. I did not even turn on the FMS. I don't have the BI-1900 so I thought I might read the manual for the FMS/EFIS first.

 

I was very please with the handling and looks of the S550. It is a real head turner and the sounds are good enough for me. The workmanship on the model is outstanding or maybe a little better. Frame rates for me are a non-issue. I couldn't see any real drop inside or out of the VC. May be different if the FMS is running.

 

The reflections and shadows are excellent in P3Dv2.4 with this one. I think Carenado may have improved the reflections on this one. They make it look almost real.

 

I like the 2d popups for the AP and EFIS panel. The MFD looks pretty slick and also pops up. I replaced the screen with my GTN750 for this flight so I will have to read more about the capabilites and report back on it. I am using the MFD popup feature to popup my GTN750 when needed. I need to find a way to have both at the same time. I know how, just need to spend the time making the popup hotspot.

 

Anyway, my numbers are almost book numbers for the S550, even though Carenado is not including the numbers just yet.

 

Level at FL350, 10,702 Total Weight (kinda on the light side), CG 16.7%, -53.9C OAT, -32.9C TAT, -63C Dewpoint.

Balls to the wall power setting for high cruise. N1 105.72/106.00 N2 98.86% / 99.00%, Turbine Thrust 602/607 Turbine Temps 485.8C / 486.4C, EPR 0.78 / 0.78, Oil Temo 78.8C /78.8C, Oil Press 78.5/78.6 psi

 

Proof of the pudding. TAS 399 kts. Mach 0.69 Book numbers are 402 kts / m 0.70 for a perfect day. Close enough for P3dV2.4 for me. Fuel burn at the time was 492 pph/496 pph. No big deal when using a virtual credit card for Jet Fuel.

 

The ground handling is outstanding. Nose wheel steering make ground movement a delight. Full fledge APU unit. Looks, sounds and acts like the real thing.

 

Exterior model seems to be perfect. I stepped through all the preset views inside and out. I have all the screen shots if you would like for me to send them to you.

 

Autopilot reponse seemed smack on for me. Heading and altitude changes were smooth and correct. I used the 2d popups on a second monitor so I could jump inside and outside and still monitor the gauges.

 

I did a circling visual approach and was close to the numbers. I couldn't read the A/S exact but was not more than a couple of knots off at any time. Smooth touchdown, well as smooth as the stiff gear on the S550 will let you. The trailing link mains were about 10 years later on the Bravo.

 

I am confident any bugs that do pop up will be fixed by Carenado or the community at large. I love this plane and will probably fly it until the modern ones - CJ1+ (my favorite) or the XLS+ hits the streets.

 

If the FMS turns out to be a dud, I will find a way to plant the GTNs in the panel. If not, I will use them as popups and enjoy my flying.

 

Oh, the livery that I chose had the little American flag backwards on the starbord vertical stablizer. Took about 2 minutes to make it right.

 

Nothing quite like a true jet. You gotta love the Citations if you are a Cessna man.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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When Pigs Fly . Ray Marshall .

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Ray,

 

You say you did a full power take off. Were all engine instruments in the green, particularly the ITT during the take off roll and climb out?

 

-Bob

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Ray,

 

You say you did a full power take off. Were all engine instruments in the green, particularly the ITT during the take off roll and climb out?

 

-Bob

I didn't capture any screenshots of the climbout. If I was in the red at any time it would have been for less than a minute anyway. I am off the do some short field takeoff and landings. I will pay close attention to the top end of the gauges. I normally fly out of a 3200 foot runway with tall trees at the end. Should be fun.

 

Regards,

 

Ray


When Pigs Fly . Ray Marshall .

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Guest BeaverDriver

This is great of you Ray!! Thank you very much indeed. Sounds great. I see from a couple of your screenshots that the ITT's look fine even with the fan speeds up fairly high. I am concerned about the ITT's as well (same as Bob650), so that's the only remaining issue for me.

 

Really appreciate this Ray and I look forward to your report on short field takeoffs and how the ITT's respond. Many thanks!

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Guest BeaverDriver

Oh, wrt the FMS, I read from a RW Citation 550 pilot that they never had FMS' in the earlier models like this, so I'll probably just leave it off as did you. Even when they did get them, they were not all that functional, so while for the $$$ they are charging for this version you should have a working FMS, I'm not going to be all that upset at not having it. Hopefully it will get fixed, but I don't think Carenado will be the ones to do it if it is.


The climb performance is like an old truck.....the climb rate between FL180 and FL240 was not more than 1200ft/m after my first flight. After reaching FL240 the aircraft speeds up and then you can climb again to a higher level so step climbs are more then recommended ;-)

 

And just to confirm that in the FMS I have no chance to check for example the ILS frequ. of my destination airport. At least in the PC-12 from Carenado i can check this via the airport info

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

Thanks for this Mark. Appreciate that!

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Ray, thanks for the review.

 

+1 

 

OK, I admit it, I was hoping for a more positive take on the effort than what I had seen so far  - so now I am back to pondering the purchase again (and the F1 GTN as well).

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This is great of you Ray!! Thank you very much indeed. Sounds great. I see from a couple of your screenshots that the ITT's look fine even with the fan speeds up fairly high. I am concerned about the ITT's as well (same as Bob650), so that's the only remaining issue for me.

 

Really appreciate this Ray and I look forward to your report on short field takeoffs and how the ITT's respond. Many thanks!

OK Gang, you are going to love the short field performance. That is what that big, straight wing was built for.

 

I used S45 on the coast of Oregon and I had a breeze on my nose. The runway is a little less than 3200 feet. I used 15 degrees flap and 11,500 pounds. (175 gallons in each wing) Standard day stuff. I broke ground about a third of the way down the runway and between snapping pictures, monitoring the temps and such I was a tad late in getting the gear up but I was at almost 600 feet at the end of the pavement. See pics. VR was 98 Kts.

 

Upper numbers well shy of the red except for ITT. Limits chart says 700 max so we will have to fine tune our technique and limit oower to about 90% or so. I bet you could clear the trees with 80% or less takeoff power. see Takeoff limitations chart.

 

Bweautiful Bird, this one.

 

Regards,

 

Ray

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When Pigs Fly . Ray Marshall .

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Maybe Carenado could save their 550 by providing a different (optional) cockpit using old style avionics instead of current.

They could replace that useless MFD with a fake radar instead and get rid of the FMS.

If they also could fix the autopilot, it could become a flyable, more realistic, "old generation" Citation. Bad idea?


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Guest BeaverDriver

Thanks for this Ray (again). One concern though - in the last pic of the panel (just above the chart), it looks like your fan speed is well within limits but you're actually above the redlines for the ITT's. That is the part that's concerning me as at those levels IRL you'd have a pair of molten engine pods where the engines used to be. Sounds like you have power to spare on this, but if you were heavy trying to get out of there and had to push the power up near max, you'd be in trouble. Any thoughts on that?

 

Thanks again Ray!

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