Vatsims code of conduct - need some clarification

[spearmint_flyer 579]

 So I had an incident with a controller tonight which I choose to not disclose to be more respectful than he was. In my 13 years of Vatsim flying I have never seen a situation like this happen so I want to see if anyone can give me their 2 cents on the matter.

 

 I was flying to an airport in the US for the whole flight there where no communicating or controlling airspace.So it was a 122.8 SQ 1200 for the whole 5 hour flight. I was literally 3 feet away from my PC studying my PTS for my real world check-ride that I am taking in a few days. At no time during that flight did I receive a contact me request or any advisory that I was going into a controlled airspace. As I am simply human I do not have memorized which exactly is the lateral boundaries of all airspace in the world . Nor do I have a map in my cockpit that tells me "HEY your going into airspace and someone is online now." 

 

At my TOD about 100 miles from the airport I started my descent I came out of full screen and noticed in Vpilot that the center controller was online. So I tried contacting him 6 times.  Again just using fair judgement of "ok its close enough" and since I have not received a contact me I must be about to go into his airspace now that I am at the TOD i'll call him. 

 

 His response was " Yeah you've been in my airspace for 200 miles and you did not call me, now if your going to call me now than you just better keep monitoring unicom and continue disregarding my presence." I could understand that he might be upset that I did not contact him so I truly felt sorry I did not contact him sooner. In my eyes I was still out side of his airspace. Again I don't have the boundaries memorized and with out proper flight following like in the real world its hard to know when exactly you contact a controller. I responded to the controller and explained I am sorry and told him normally I get a contact me request and I called you thinking I was still outside of your airspace. 

 

He proceeded to note that the code of conduct states I have to monitor when I am inside and airspace and I have to contact the controller. Ill be the first to admit  that he is right. Did he have to embarrass me in the frequency? I think there are more civilized ways of handling it. Of course I read the code of conduct and I agree that it does state that. 

 

My problem with this is 

1. (Of least importance) If he is so up to par with the code he should note the very first one says to be courteous at all times. But again technically I was wrong.

2. How exactly is it that I can monitor my position in relation to an active airspace. With out the contact me request from an active controller I find there are no official software that will tell you. Sure there is Vroute and other websites but it cannot be opened in the simulator and might even crash my flight if I am running full screen. 

 

Finally if we look at this from a realistic stand point in the real world a GPS for example like the Garmin 430/530 would show you low level airspace and if I requested fight following I would see the Approach airspace where I can request flight following. The center airspace boundaries is not shown in any charts because they are most of them used on the ceiling of approach control airspace and on CLASS A airspace which starts at 18000. At that point you have already contacted approach control and have had a clear hand off. 

 

So if we compare I had no real way of knowing the airspace boundaries until I was at least in the Class B airspace (which was the case tonight) which in that assumption I was by all means still clear of controllable airspace and he should have given me ATC flight following from the point I contacted him forward.

 

 I am not trying to bash on vatsim. I have enjoyed 13 years and it has lead me to my real world career ambitions. Which is why this is a concern for me. There seems to be a disconnect of what the realistic side of it is to the expectations of controllers. In my opinion there has been a miss on explaining in the COC what is the appropriate method of determining when to contact a center controller and how is it that a center controller has the right to say you are in my airspace. In the US above 18000 feet makes sense and then when you are approaching any of the controlled airspace for example class D ,C and B. But if you are not flying IFR and have not had any contact how can I be expected to know who I contact.

 

A good example is if I fly at 9D4 ICAO for Deck Airport in Lebanon PA, USA its a uncontrolled class E airspace.If I fly out of that airport and want to fly to NYC KJFK in a Phenom 100. I can choose to take off and fly VFR with out having to contact anyone for at least 100 miles. Then lets assume I want to file an IFR I would have to at that point contact the controlling approach controller of the controlling sector request IFR before I can say I want to climb above 18000 feet which is IFR only. According to the controller that talked to me tonight he can choose to say " Na forget about it, you've been in my airspace for a 100 miles and you choose to call me now. Monitor unicom you &@($*" 

 

In the other hand I can stay below 18000 feet in class E and G airspace not contact anyone until I am reaching the NY class B sector. I again do not have to talk to anyone until I reach NYC where I must establish communications to enter the class B. If its NY center online can he also deny me ATC services cause he is mad?

 

Again I am not trying to make a case for LOOK VATSIM IS BAD. I simply want to have some clarification on why I was treated that way and how can I prevent this happening again. 

 

 Thank you

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[learn-by-flying 37]

To comment on your points:

 

1. All vARTCCs that I am familiar with have a feedback system which you can relay your experience with a certain controller to the Air Traffic Manager of that area. This way you can submit the situation to a 3rd party and actions can be taken accordingly.

 

2. As a pilot, you are always responsible to know where you are and what type of airspace you are currently operating in. I always have Vattastic (http://www.vattastic.com) open on my utilities computer to monitor my flight. From you post I am guessing you fly with a single monitor and a single computer, in your case let me suggest an addon being developed which brings html5 and the power of the web into FSX itself (http://forum.avsim.net/topic/438276-bringing-html5-into-fsxprepar3d-add-ons/).

 

Unfortunately everyone has a bad day, don't let one bad controller or experience ruin the other 13 years with VATSIM. I would also say that the majority of traffic is IFR wanting ATC services. This is my speculation, but the controller may have been lacking understanding as to why you're on the network and not contacting ATC.

 

Remember, we as pilots need controllers and controllers need us pilots.

[MarkW 1,491]

As a controller on Vatsim I think this behavior is idiotic.  Yes the controller was correct by the letter of the law but Vatsim is not the real world.  The rule works on Vatsim when you are on the ground and should double check if a controller is online so you don't have people taking off at controlled air fields.  On Vatsim where you have mostly uncontrolled airspace (very much unlike the RW) and controllers pop on at any moment the polite thing to do is for the controller to send a "contact me" message to the pilot.  And in return, the polite thing to do is that the pilot is close to his computer to answer the call.  Nothing is more annoying as a controller than unresponsive aircraft (well its tied with pilots who don't follow instructions).   As a pilot I am sure you have had the same experience I have had were you are proactive and contact a controller because you see that you are at the boundary on Vatspy (or ServInfo) only to be told "Sir you are currently 150 miles west of my airspace, call in when you get closer".  

[spearmint_flyer 579]

It was frustrating to me because I was like I said 3 feet away from my PC in full screen. All though technically right the controller did not have to come down to humiliate me because I failed to call him earlier. It was uncalled for and like you said Mike normally I keep an eye out when I'm on the ground about to start moving. But if I was flying in uncontrolled airspace was it so hard for him to send me a friendly reminder of hey your inside call me know. I was only a few feet away. It wouldn't of hurt one bit.

 

After last night I felt really down and did not think it was worth it anymore to continue simming in VATSIM I might just quite and dedicate myself to real world. I'm sorry to say this but I'm disappointed that I can not get treated with the same respect and courtesy I treat people.

[MarkW 1,491]

I would suggest to provide the FIR feedback and I would just fly elsewhere for a little while.  No assurance you won't run into mean controllers in the real world either.

[Kyprianos Biris 12]

MisterA this behavior is unusual and you should not let it affect you. In such a case I would simply continue with my hobby without bothering or maybe I would submit a complaint to the ARTCC he is from.

 

On a separate note, to help you find ways to know your FIR boundaries:

Real pilots are always aware of their location and the FIRs boundaries. They have charts for this (paper or portable map devices) as an aid to compliment (by law) the FMC data which does not show FIR boundaries. They simply have to know where they are not only for navigation but also regarding which FIR they fly in to. In US its simpler because its Federal. Abroad its even more important because FIR border means country/state border (I mean in the legal way).

 

In virtual flying there few means available if you have no paper IFR charts or software like real pilots that shows your route with FIR boundaries

 

VROUTE print out of the flight plan includes ICAO code of FIR change on the fix that borders it. This is what I use as main reference in my flights because the ICAO code of the FIR coincides usually with the code of the CTR controller on line so I (almost) do not need to consult a chart. Also in VROUTE if you click your flight's tab you see at bottom the 2 hour forecast of the FIR boundaries you will cross next.

 

FSCommander that I use as back up moving map on networked laptop at a zoom of 200nm+ shows (purple lines) the FIR boundaries so you see your route and where it crosses boundaries.

 

Other on line activity tools like VROUTE, ServInfo, Vatastic, Vatspy, QuteScoop etc. show on line ATC and your flight so by combining both you can judge when you enter active airspace.

They're all in there http://www.vatsim.net/pilots/resources

 

Running FS in full screen and having vPilot in the same PC screen necessitates you to often check for on line atc in the ATC list. When you see them you owe to check who (where) they are in one of the above tools.

 

Something else related.

Usually controllers send the automatic "Contact Me ..." private message if you do not do so by the time you enter their airspace.

In your case its seems he did not.

Because vPilot chat sound is a low volume tick I have substituted this with the good ol' sound of FSinn for this.

From vPilot FAQ:

Q: I don't really like the alert tone that alerts when a new PM is received. Can I change it?
A: Yes, you can change any of the sounds. You can find the current location of the sounds here: %localappdata%\vPilot\Sounds Alert.wav is the file that is played when a new text message comes in. You can replace it with your own sound if you wish. You just need to ensure it has the same file name (e.g., Alert.wav).

 

 

I put the vPilot sounds on speakers if I am away from cockpit for a while at uncontrolled airspace and this way I can make sure I do not miss "Contact me" chat or a Supervisor check message B)

If you have vPilot and FS in the same PC just switch FS sound OFF with "Q" and have vPilot is speakers so you can hear it while away from cockpit even if it is in the background at full screen mode.

[FVat 1]

OP, the right things for you to do reacting to such bad ATC:

 

1. capture the entire conversation between you and the ATC, by voice or by text

2. Submit the evidence to admin of the ARTCC which that bad ATC belongs to

3. If the reply from the ARTCC admin is not satisfactory or just not right, escalate the issue to the Board of Governors.

 

The must important thing to remember is that you should make sure that every piece of your communication with any of the VATSIM staff is recorded as evidence.

VATSIM admins ban VATSIM users whoever they don't like so you need evidence to protect yourself.

[vololiberista 205]

A friend of mine many years ago was flying to Redhill EGKR and was flying West to East on a parallel course with the London TMA boundary. One week after he landed he was arrested by the police because his parallel course was actually a quarter of a mile within the TMA. The UK CAA fined him £10,000. He never flew again. This was in the early 70's!!

[Alpha Floor 237]

Don't give it so much thought Alcides. You had the bad luck of meeting a jerk and uptight controller.

 

I've flown mostly on IVAO and a bit on VATSIM. VATSIM seemed unfriendly to me, or more unfriendly than IVAO. ATCs in IVAO are very pacient towards newbies (not saying you are one, of course). In VATSIM I felt like ATCs want to seem so professional they don't want to lower their "realism immersion factor" by teaching anything to a newcomer.

 

That's my subjective impression at least. Other people might have had other impressions. Maybe I had bad luck in my few flights.

 

 

 

He proceeded to note that the code of conduct states I have to monitor when I am inside and airspace and I have to contact the controller.

 

In theory, maybe.

 

In practice you wait till the controller contacts you. People have lives, come on!

 

I've been flying online on IVAO for 10 years and NEVER had an issue. In fact, in IVAO there's a big margin between ATC calling you and the guy calling a supervisor if you're not responding. When I was an ATC myself, I couldn't care less if anybody was out of the cockpit...

 

 

1. capture the entire conversation between you and the ATC, by voice or by text
2. Submit the evidence to admin of the ARTCC which that bad ATC belongs to
3. If the reply from the ARTCC admin is not satisfactory or just not right, escalate the issue to the Board of Governors.

 

Isn't it just easier to let it go?

 

Don't we have enough problems in real life to go and create us some more?

 

If they ban you from VATSIM for such a stupid thing, then maybe you're better off not flying in VATSIM at all.

 

It's the same as when in real life a company fires you for an idiotic reason. The company is demonstrating their idiotic nature and thus you don't want to be working for them. In essence, they are doing you a favour.

[Gregg_Seipp 568]

 

 

If they ban you from VATSIM for such a stupid thing, then maybe you're better off not flying in VATSIM at all.

 

Seems they'd be removing the very people they want.  I've flown on IVAO and I plan to do so again soon.  Friendly, helpful...they seem to like pilots.

[FVat 1]

Don't give it so much thought Alcides. You had the bad luck of meeting a jerk and uptight controller.

 

I've flown mostly on IVAO and a bit on VATSIM. VATSIM seemed unfriendly to me, or more unfriendly than IVAO. ATCs in IVAO are very pacient towards newbies (not saying you are one, of course). In VATSIM I felt like ATCs want to seem so professional they don't want to lower their "realism immersion factor" by teaching anything to a newcomer.

 

That's my subjective impression at least. Other people might have had other impressions. Maybe I had bad luck in my few flights.

 

 

 

 

In theory, maybe.

 

In practice you wait till the controller contacts you. People have lives, come on!

 

I've been flying online on IVAO for 10 years and NEVER had an issue. In fact, in IVAO there's a big margin between ATC calling you and the guy calling a supervisor if you're not responding. When I was an ATC myself, I couldn't care less if anybody was out of the cockpit...

 

 

 

Isn't it just easier to let it go?

 

Don't we have enough problems in real life to go and create us some more?

 

If they ban you from VATSIM for such a stupid thing, then maybe you're better off not flying in VATSIM at all.

 

It's the same as when in real life a company fires you for an idiotic reason. The company is demonstrating their idiotic nature and thus you don't want to be working for them. In essence, they are doing you a favour.

In many VATSIM related communities, I am seeing several case reviews going on to fight the misconduct of VATSIM staff.

[Alpha Floor 237]

 

 

In many VATSIM related communities, I am seeing several case reviews going on to fight the misconduct of VATSIM staff.

 

I'm not saying the contrary. I was just expressing my opinion that I wouldn't want to be part of a club in which I'd have to "defend" myself from the staff...

[Slayer 190]

OP: Have you ever tried Plan G?  Might help with airspace boundaries etc, it shows vatsim traffic too , and it's free..Then there should be no question, a quick alt tab will tell all.

[FVat 1]

I'm not saying the contrary. I was just expressing my opinion that I wouldn't want to be part of a club in which I'd have to "defend" myself from the staff...

Yeah I understand.

 

I was just saying that seems that some other people really do care and are planning their moves. lol