No Active Route on FMC Right After Take Off

[hornet65 0]

Flightaware doesn't have flight plans for direct download, but it does give the flight plans for thousands of real world flights. Just enter the departure and destination airports and you will see many flights. Most of them have flight plans in the box at the right

 

Hi Mike,

 

OK....I'm starting to get familiar with Flightaware.  I clicked on a flight from LAX to EWR and got the details on the status...and found the flight plan listed. I clicked the "decode" button and got the expanded flight plan below.  The basic flight plan with Airways, and VORS are listed above in boldface. The List below show all the way points, reporting points, VORs....but no airways listed(ps..this acutally shows up as a spreadsheet layout, not a continous string as shown below).  Anyhow, this is where I'm getting a bit fuzzy about entering a flight plan properly.  In the 747 manual, the airwarys (eg  J169) are entered in the VIA field and the various waypoints, VORs..etc are in the TO field. This is where I need a bit of help understanding the correct way to enter the flightplan. Any comments, tips, or direction are appreciated.

 

Thanks again for your support!!  Once I become proficient I'll be more thant happy share my experience with others! 

 

KLAX HOLTZ9 TRM BLH J169 KOFFA KA24Q ONM TXO J74 IRW ARG BWG BKW J42 GVE PHLBO3 KEWR

Name Latitude Longitude Distance from origin Distance from destination Type KLAX 33.9425003 -118.4080736 0 2451 Origin Airport FABRA 33.9456389 -118.4649722 3 2454 Waypoint ENNEY 33.9427778 -118.5013889 5 2456 Waypoint NAANC 33.9316667 -118.6438889 14 2464 Waypoint DOCAG 33.8027778 -118.6833333 19 2470 Waypoint PEVEE 33.6972222 -118.5208333 18 2464 Waypoint HOLTZ 33.6445556 -118.3430000 21 2457 Waypoint TRM 33.6280833 -116.1601944 131 2343 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) BLH 33.5960647 -114.7612733 211 2270 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) SALOM 33.5161806 -113.8888694 262 2227 Reporting Point KOFFA 33.4635917 -113.3489167 293 2200 Reporting Point KOFFA 33.4635917 -113.3489167 293 2200 Reporting Point KA24Q 34.0000000 -110.0000000 482 2009 NRS-WAYPOINT ONM 34.3388889 -106.8205556 664 1833 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) TXO 34.4951267 -102.8396633 890 1621 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) IRW 35.3585969 -97.6092267 1185 1325 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) ARG 36.1100000 -90.9536111 1557 962 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) BWG 36.9286111 -86.4433333 1805 710 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) BKW 37.7802997 -81.1234556 2093 423 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) ASBUR 37.8234472 -80.4642889 2129 391 Reporting Point DENNY 37.8667083 -79.7371528 2168 356 Reporting Point MOL 37.9005247 -79.1068892 2202 327 VOR-DME (NAVAID) GVE 38.0136008 -78.1530247 2253 282 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) GVE 38.0136111 -78.1530278 2253 282 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) OTT 38.7058611 -76.7447500 2325 194 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) PALEO 39.0280000 -76.3727222 2343 164 Reporting Point PEEDS 39.1416944 -76.2403056 2349 154 Reporting Point FUBRR 39.2659444 -76.0948889 2357 142 Reporting Point DQO 39.6781389 -75.6070833 2380 103 VOR-TAC (NAVAID) STEFE 39.9653056 -75.2600000 2397 76 Reporting Point SOMTO 40.1261667 -75.0637222 2407 61 Reporting Point ARD 40.2533333 -74.9076111 2415 49 VOR-DME (NAVAID) DYLIN 40.2874722 -74.8598056 2417 46 Reporting Point   40.3054444 -74.8345833 2418 44 ARTCC Boundary Crossing MERSR 40.3101111 -74.8280000 2419 44 Reporting Point METRO 40.4227222 -74.6695278 2426 32 Reporting Point MARRT 40.6069444 -74.6202778 2428 24 Waypoint PHLBO 40.8303889 -74.5601944 2430 23 Waypoint KEWR 40.6924798 -74.1686868 2451 0 Destination Airport

[Mike777 163]

 

 

OK....I'm starting to get familiar with Flightaware. I clicked on a flight from LAX to EWR and got the details on the status...and found the flight plan listed. I clicked the "decode" button and got the expanded flight plan below. The basic flight plan with Airways, and VORS are listed above in boldface. The List below show all the way points, reporting points, VORs....but no airways listed(ps..this acutally shows up as a spreadsheet layout, not a continous string as shown below). Anyhow, this is where I'm getting a bit fuzzy about entering a flight plan properly. In the 747 manual, the airwarys (eg J169) are entered in the VIA field and the various waypoints, VORs..etc are in the TO field. This is where I need a bit of help understanding the correct way to enter the flightplan. Any comments, tips, or direction are appreciated.

Thanks again for your support!! Once I become proficient I'll be more thant happy share my experience with others!

KLAX HOLTZ9 TRM BLH J169 KOFFA KA24Q ONM TXO J74 IRW ARG BWG BKW J42 GVE PHLBO3 KEWR

 

Hi, Tom,

 

First, the plan begins w/ a SID, HOL:TZ9, and ends with a STAR, PHLBO3.  They should be saved for after you have entered the rest of the plan. 

 

There are two ways to enter the plan: using the ROUTE page and using the LEGS page.  The ROUTE page is much easier, and you only need the form of the plan I've copied above.

 

Begin by entering TRM in the right TO column, then on the next line TO column BLH (since there is no airway between them).  Then on the next line enter the airway J169 in the VIA space on the left, and  then KOFFA in the TO blank on the right.   If you now look at the LEGS page you will see that an intermediate waypoint, SALOM, has been filled in automatically.  The next few entries are simply waypoints.  Those go in the TO (right) column.  When you get to further airways, enter them as you did for J169.  After you have finished entering, you can again go to the legs page.  For this plan, you will see that between BKW and GVE several more waypoints will have been automatically entered -- should be all the intermediate waypoints in the long version of your plan.  All of the waypoints in the long version should be listed on the LEGS page, and you could have entered them one by one there.  But the ROUTE page makes entry much simpler.

 

Finally, go to the DEP/ARR page, choose DEP, enter the departure runway and then on the right HOLTZ9, the SID.  Then go to ARR, find the likely arrival runway, select it, then select PHLBO3 (Not all SIDs or STARS are available for all runways, so you may have to pick a different SID or STAR).  You can view U.S. SID and STAR charts, as well as runway final approach charts (IAPs) at flightaware, by selecting a specific airport and then IFR PLATES.  HOLTZ9 appears to be available only for west KLAX departures, while PHLBO3 looks to be available for all EWR runways.

 

I don't own the 747 for FSX, but I'm sure it came w/ at least one tutorial.  You  will get a lot out of following it (or them).

 

Mike

[pschlute 37]

Hi Peter,

 

I did enable the NATS tab. This is what I get.....(also, I unchecked the SID STAR RNAV  and TACAN tabs as well)

 

RouteFinder

Route generator for PC flight simulation use - NOT FOR REAL WORLD NAVIGATION

©2005-2007 ASA srl - Italy

NAT: Eastbound track message identification is 59

NAT: Westbound track message identification is 59

Couldn't find a routing between JOHN F KENNEDY INTL (KJFK, KJ) and FRANKFURT MAIN (EDDF, ED) at FL331 - FL390.

 

You need the RNAV box checked.

 

You should also tick the boxes for SIDS STARS in routefinder. The reason being that the planner will then create a route that starts at a major intersection which coincides with the endpoint of the usual SIDS. Likewise it will end at a major intersection which coincides with the beginning of the usual STARS. This will enable you to load the route into the FMC, and you can select which departure SID to use once you actually know which runway you will be taking off from, as they are runway specific. Likewise you do not need to enter a STAR until you are closer to your destination and have a better idea which runway you will be landing on.

 

If you untick the boxes for SIDS STARS the flightplan will start/end at waypoints that may not correspond to waypoints in the SID/STAR that you expect to fly.

[hornet65 0]

Mike,

 

Thanks for your input.  You filled in quite a few blanks with your explanation!  I have a pretty good grip on entering flight plan information correctly now. Also, I'm getting a better handle on Simbrief. This is actually a very good utility once you start getting a handle on it. I've generated several flight plans and saved as FSX and RTE files.  However, as you mentioned above, I believe these routes contain SID/STAR fixes. So, I'll need to identify them and change/remove accordingly based on current runway availability.  That said, I'm going to enter a few short flight plans manually as suggested. This will be a good exercise no doubt.

 

Peter,

 

Thanks! I checked the SID/STAR and RNAV boxes. This solve the issue of generating a route in Simroutes.  I then inserted the route into Simbrief...and generated a good route.  Also, I found that with grabbing a RW flight ( ie airline, flight number dep/arr from Flightaware, Simbrief automatically loaded the flight plan for that specific flight. Very cool!..

 

I haven't used the VNAV yet as I've been happy to take FSX's ATC prompts to lead me to my flight plan....at which point I engaged the auto pilot and  LNAV.   Thus I haven't been using sid/stars.  That said, I will work towards using these navigation features now.   We'll see how FSX's ATC behaves with this.

 

Thanks again Gentlemen!  I'll let you know how I progress.

[pschlute 37]

 

 

 

   Thus I haven't been using sid/stars.  That said, I will work towards using these navigation features now.   We'll see how FSX's ATC behaves with this.

 

 

 

You will find that the default ATC does not know aything about SIDS/STARS. All it knows are waypoints. If the SID/STAR you are following in your 747 FMC differs from the waypoints in your FSX flightplan (they almost inevitibly will), you will get nagged by ATC to follow a different course. You will have to ignore their instructions, until you reach the end of the SID when you should be back in sync. Same with a STAR....if it leads you to line up with the ILS for the runway you will have to ignore any ATC vectors, unless of course you wish to be vectored.

 

There are better ATC addons you can buy, but none are perfect and take a bit of getting used to. I suggest you wait a bit before trying one.

[hornet65 0]

Hello Peter, Mike,

 

Your suggestions have been very helpful. I've successully loaded flight plans manaully. Also, I saved flight plans in FSX and PMDG file formats. I found the Flightaware and Simbrief resources to be quite good.  As mentioned we can get any number of real world/real time flights just by plugging in an airline and departure/destination details.  you can select a flight and get a map of the route. I found that you can grab the route in Flightaware and plug it into Simbrief when creating a new flight.  Interestingly, if you plug in a given airline, flight number, departure and destination, simbrief will automatically load the flight plan into the flight planer. There you can check the validity of the flight against the available AIRAC.  If a waypiont isn't recognized it will tell you so, and you can remove it, and re-check the flight plan.  You'll get the thumbs up when all "errors" are removed.  This is very cool.  

 

Once you added pax weight, cargo weight, and Zero Fuel weight, then  you can file the plan, and get a detailed printed flight plan.  This plan will caclulate fuel burn, contingency fuel, taxi fuel, rerserves, and alternate fuel for you based on the current weather, etc.  

 

The one thing I've noticed with the PMDG FMC is that not all airports have available SIDs.  For intance KEWR (Newark Liberty) and KIAD (Wash. Dulles) don't have any SIDs. When you select a runway for departure, the SIDs column says "None"  As such you don't get the detailed climbout and cruise altitudes and target speeds at each waypoint.  I know you can enter these manually...easily enough.  And the detailed simbrief flight plan gives you target altitudes and air speeds. But the airspeeds seem kind of high. For instance, leaving Dulles (KIAD) the first waypoint is SWANN @ 59NM.  The report says I'll cross this waypoint at FL 237, and Mach .82  TAS 505NM.  This seems awfully fast for the altitude even for the 747-400.  Any comments on this?

 

PS...I did create a flight plan from Honolulu (PHNL) to Newark(KEWR)  PHNL did have SIDs available and I was able to select one and enter the transition waypoint as well.  Once I executed the plan, I got a detailed FL and Airspeed targets for each waypoint along the way. So, my VNAV worked just fine. Also, FYI KEWR did have availabe STARs

 

Any comments about SIDs not being available at certain airports?

 

Anyways....do recommend the resources that you guys mentioned (ie Simbrief and Flightaware. They are quite useful and easy once you get the hang of it).

 

Cheers!

 

Tom

 

PS.....I just realized that the FL and Air Speed details aren't calculated unit you completed the Fuel load, take off and thrust pages.  So that question is answered.. However this doesn't answer the question about available SIDs

[Mike777 163]

The one thing I've noticed with the PMDG FMC is that not all airports have available SIDs. For intance KEWR (Newark Liberty) and KIAD (Wash. Dulles) don't have any SIDs. When you select a runway for departure, the SIDs column says "None" As such you don't get the detailed climbout and cruise altitudes and target speeds at each waypoint.

 

Hi, Tom,

 

Thanks for reporting about SimBrief.  I need to check it out.

 

You should have SIDs and STARs for both KIAD and KEWR.  I've flown the 777 in and out of KIAD recently and they were certainly there.  Take a look in FSX/PMDG/SIDSTARS and find the files called KIAD.txt and KEWR.txt.   As long as you don't edit and save them, opening w/ notepad won't do any harm.   You should see lists of both SIDs and STARs in each file, along w/ the waypoints and other data such as speed and altitude restrictions under each named SID/STAR.  If they are missing perhaps you have an old Airac.  Current number, just released, is 1503.  (The FMC should show you the Airac number and date; also each [airportID].txt file should give the Airac number and dates near the top.)  If they are there I'm not sure why your FMC would not see them (except that some SIDs/STARs are limited to certain runways; once you select a runway some may disappear for this reason). 

 

Some airports do not have SIDs and/or STARs.  KORD only has STARs. All departures are vectored.  KMOB, where I live, has neither (not all that much traffic).   You can check the IFR plates on flightaware -- if an airport shows as having charts for SIDs and STARs, they should show up pretty much the same in your FMC.

 

Mike

[skelsey 765]

One top tip for Simbrief users -- the PMDG 747 burns quite a lot more fuel than the real thing. It's not quite consistent across the flight regime which maks it quite difficult to compensate completely accuratelt, but I find that using a fuel bias of P08 works well in general. As a very, very rough TLAR (That Looks About Right) cross-check for your figures, I usually assume a burn of around 12T per hour (for comparison, the real thing is much closer to 10T per hour).

 

On that subject, I find Simbrief to be largely accurate as far as the flight profile predictions are concerned -- top of climb and descent are never going to be exact but I find they are close enough for the fuel predictions to be pretty accurate once the P08 bias factor is applied, which is really the main thing. I also find that the initial optimum altitude and subsequent step climbs are pretty close as well. There are some inaccuracies in the PMDG 747 flight model -- for instance, the real thing climbs quite a bit better and burns less fuel overall -- which pose challenges for any flight planning software, but on the whole it's good enough.

[hornet65 0]

Hello Simon,

 

Thanks for the Tip. I will use fuel bias P08 and see how that goes. The fuel burn rule of thumb ( ie 12T/hr) is good to know.  I'll run with this.

 

Mike,

 

I still can't quite figure out why I'm not getting any SIDs for Newark or Dulles.  I haven't purchased the most recent AIRAC yet.  However with Simbrief, you can remove waypoints that earlier AIRACs don't recognize. I'd think that earlier SIDs should be in the PMDG FMC database.  Puzzling for sure.  I'll check the files you mentioned though

 

Thanks Gents,

 

Cheers