TOPCAT for the NG and 777

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

You have it wrong.

TORA is just runway length nothing more.

TODA - RUNWAY + CLEARWAY.

 

I appreciate your thirst for knowledge, but it appears that you've taken a wrong turn...

 

Take Off Distance Available

Definition

The length of the take off run available (TORA) plus the length of the clearway, where provided.

http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Take_Off_Distance_Available_(TODA)

 

This is becoming a problem, honestly. If you don't know what you're talking about, please refrain from posting and wait until the topic is about something that you understand.

 

You're trying to argue with a guy who worked in airport planning, which requires intimate knowledge of these various definitions.

 

 

 

I read on the TOPCAT forum it doesn't use it and thats from the producer

 

Link?

[Driver170 42]

AR-OPS 1.480 (a)(9) TakeOff Run Available (TORA): The length of runway which is declared available by the appropriate authority and suitable for the ground run of an aeroplane taking off. TORA is either equal to the runway length, or to the distance from the runway entry point (intersecting taxiway) to the end of the runway

JAR-OPS 1.480 (a)(7) Takeoff Distance Available (TODA): The length of the takeoff run available plus the length of the clearway available.

 

 

This is becoming a problem, honestly. If you don't know what you're talking about, please refrain from posting and wait until the topic is about something that you understand.

 

Maybe you can say that to the flight operations who wrote this manual and which i am reading from and studying

[scandinavian13 5,192]

AR-OPS 1.480 (a)(9) TakeOff Run Available (TORA): The length of runway which is declared available by the appropriate authority and suitable for the ground run of an aeroplane taking off. TORA is either equal to the runway length, or to the distance from the runway entry point (intersecting taxiway) to the end of the runway

JAR-OPS 1.480 (a)(7) Takeoff Distance Available (TODA): The length of the takeoff run available plus the length of the clearway available.

 

Maybe you can say that to the flight operations who wrote this manual and which i am reading from and studying

 

Re-read what you wrote above, versus what is being said right here.

 

"AR-OPS 1.480 (a)(9) TakeOff Run Available (TORA): The length of runway which is declared available by the appropriate authority and suitable for the ground run of an aeroplane taking off. TORA is either equal to the runway length, or to the distance from the runway entry point (intersecting taxiway) to the end of the runway"

This doesn't address TODA at all. It does discuss what TORA is.

 

"JAR-OPS 1.480 (a)(7) Takeoff Distance Available (TODA): The length of the takeoff run available plus the length of the clearway available."

This confirms exactly what I said above. This quote essentially says TODA = TORA + clearway.

 

You claimed that I was incorrect for saying that TODA is simply take off distance available by saying "yeh, plus clearway." This is incorrect by the definitions you've listed above. You then attempted to clarify in post #15 with: "TODA - RUNWAY + CLEARWAY." Again, false. It's TORA + Clearway. The clearway continues beyond the paved runway, so the use of "runway" is too ambiguous for the purposes of the discussion here.

 

I'm still waiting for that TOPCAT reference, by the way.

 

EDIT: I went over to TOPCAT and found several references to data for both 1st and 2nd climb segments. The only time I saw something referencing a limitation of providing climb performance is with the Airbus data: http://www.topcatsim.com/forum/index.php?topic=571.msg2417#msg2417

[skelsey 765]

Take Off Distance Available

Definition

The length of the take off run available (TORA) plus the length of the clearway, where provided.

http://www.skybrary....vailable_(TODA)

 

To be fair, Kyle -- isn't that what Vernon said?

 

TODA - RUNWAY + CLEARWAY.

 

 

You must reach a 35' (in the dry) screen height by the end of the TODA, which would include any clearway.

 

After that, you're in to the second-segment climb at V₂ with gear retracted and flaps in the takeoff configuration to acceleration altitude, and I agree that at this point you're not bothered about the TODA or anything else to do with the runway environment.

 

At least that's my understanding of it!

 

EDIT: ah, I see what you mean!

[Skald 1]

I use Toper Web, because there are no Topcat profile for 77W, it's quite handy but it doesn't have fixed derates, only assumed temperature.

[Driver170 42]

 

 

You claimed that I was incorrect for saying that TODA is simply take off distance available by saying "yeh, plus clearway." This is incorrect by the definitions you've listed above. You then attempted to clarify in post #15 with: "TODA - RUNWAY + CLEARWAY." Again, false. It's TORA + Clearway. The clearway continues beyond the paved runway, so the use of "runway" is too ambiguous for the purposes of the discussion here.

 

Yes i may have worded things differently but were still speaking of runway available + Clearway

 

I may have got things mixed up basically; Stopway  =  ASDA - TORA 

                                                           Clearway =  TODA - TORA

 

 

You claimed that I was incorrect for saying that TODA is simply take off distance available by saying "yeh, plus clearway.

 

Yes i assumed you knew TODA has runway length so i only said plus clearway

From the 737 NG performance manual

 

TAKEOFF RUN AVAILABLE (TORA) is the runway length

 

TAKEOFF DISTANCE AVAILABLE (TODA) is the runway length plus available clearway

 

ACCELERATE STOP DISTANCE AVAILABLE (ASDA) is the runway length plus available stopway

[skelsey 765]

 

 

Yes i assumed you knew TODA has runway length so i only said plus clearway

 

Not plus clearway -- including clearway.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Yes i may have worded things differently but were still speaking of runway available + Clearway
 
I may have got things mixed up basically; Stopway  =  ASDA - TORA 
                                                           Clearway =  TODA - TORA

 

Correct.

 

 

 

Yes i assumed you knew TODA has runway length so i only said plus clearway

From the 737 NG performance manual
 
TAKEOFF RUN AVAILABLE (TORA) is the runway length
 
TAKEOFF DISTANCE AVAILABLE (TODA) is the runway length plus available clearway
 
ACCELERATE STOP DISTANCE AVAILABLE (ASDA) is the runway length plus available stopway

 

Incorrect.

 

"Yes i assumed you knew TODA has runway length so i only said plus clearway."

 

I referred to TODA. This already has clearway included in it. Your "correcting" my post referencing TODA with "plus clearway" would result in: TODA + Clearway. This would be a doubling in the clearway, or TORA + Clearway + Clearway.

[Driver170 42]

I referred to TODA. This already has clearway included in it. Your "correcting" my post referencing TODA with "plus clearway" would result in: TODA + Clearway. This would be a doubling in the clearway, or TORA + Clearway + Clearway.

 

Including

Whats incorrect? Those definitions...

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Including

Whats incorrect? Those definitions...

 

Vernon - I'm really not sure where you're not understanding this.

 

I referred to TODA in an earlier post. You then quoted my post with "Yeh plus clearway "

 

You took what I said (TODA) and added "plus clearway." The end result of that would be TODA (my post) + Clearway (your post). If TODA already includes clearway - as you admit, mind you - why would you then try to correct me by quoting a post and adding "plus clearway." That makes no sense. The end result would be TODA + Clearway, which would then essentially mean TORA + Clearway + Clearway. This is not a valid metric.

 

 

 

Additionally, we've still not seen quoted references to TOPCAT not calculating the 1st and 2nd climb segments as you've claimed. Information posted here needs to be - to the best of your knowledge - factual. If you post something in error it would be forgivable, but continuing to dig your heels in and continue arguing about it can be seen as intentionally misleading. This is especially true in this case because your argument is against a paid product.

 

Take a step back. Re-evaluate what your intention was in post #11 versus the definition of the terms that even you, yourself, have provided. While you're doing this, please also go find the reference to TOPCAT not calculating performance for the first and second segments of the climb.

[Driver170 42]

You said incorrect so i thought you were referring to the definitions i quoted thats all and not about the TODA.

 

I was incorrect about the TODA i mean't to say including. Sorry!

Additionally, we've still not seen quoted references to TOPCAT not calculating the 1st and 2nd climb segments as you've claimed. Information posted here needs to be - to the best of your knowledge - factual. If you post something in error it would be forgivable, but continuing to dig your heels in and continue arguing about it can be seen as intentionally misleading. This is especially true in this case because your argument is against a paid

 

Who's arguing about it? I'm still to look for it. I read it somewhere on the forum

[kevinh 409]

 

 

You have it wrong.

TORA is just runway length nothing more.

TODA - RUNWAY + CLEARWAY.

Kyle is correct. TODA is TORA plus clearway (if any.

 

Anyway why are you worrying about runway length when you're in the second segment climb?

[Djembe 6]

TOPCAT + PFPX = The perfect flight planner

 

TOPCAT + PFPX + ASN + PMDG737 = The perfect choice.

[CaptCraig 226]

Umm ok so apart from Kyle's info then the fight between the mod and other guy...

 

TOPCAT rocks.  You can even set temp runway shortenings etc.  It's a useful tool.  It's really nifty when it works with other aircraft you may have in your hangar.  Some can even be loaded straight from the program itself so you don't need to muck around in the silly sim load manager.  

 

If you're in to the 777 you can get perf data for the -200 at the moment.  Nothing for the 3 yet.  

[Nyxx 6,993]

Got Topcat, love the way it works within PFPX, it was the last missing link.

 

I did not get the 300 for P3D so just the 200 is fine.