Setup tutorial/guide

[SteveW 1,792]

 

Put it this way, I work on the basis of having to provide support, and that costs money and is frustrating for the end user.

 

So if I advised someone to "install their FS outside of the default folder", I can tell you that I will get a call next week from a user that downloaded a plane off the internet and none of the gauges show up in the cockpit. Something like that. I don't need it, they don't need it, you don't need it.

 

Just want to make sure I fully understand this, in what way will granting permissions to the Users group do you any good if you both install and run your application from a single user account that is part of the Administrators group only?

There's no chance I would advise that at all, so it wouldn't come up.

[WebMaximus 372]

 

 

There's no chance I would advise that at all, so it wouldn't come up.

 

OK, fair enough.

[SteveW 1,792]

 

If you think about it, if you are a member of the admins group, why do you also need UAC off or Run as Admin?

 

Windows security is too advanced to get into here, we'll be all night, and it's hard to grasp as can be seen from the posts so far. All I can say is I've provided the basic structure in my first post for you to have "trouble free flight simming". Unfortunately there's so much conjecture about, you're put off.

[SteveW 1,792]

 

I did have my AM set correctly but in my case (and this was FSX) I didn't see any real improvement having the AM set in fsx.cfg

Well since you only have 4 cores HT=Off there's no room to swing the cat. Messing with any AM is likely to cause more trouble. I did say 4 cores = leave the AM out, or apply three cores and test.

[WebMaximus 372]

If you think about it, if you are a member of the admins group, why do you also need UAC off or Run as Admin?

 

Windows security is too advanced to get into here, we'll be all night, and it's hard to grasp as can be seen from the posts so far. All I can say is I've provided the basic structure in my first post for you to have "trouble free flight simming". Unfortunately there's so much conjecture about, you're put off.

 

Because Windows security as you say is very advanced and it's not always being a member of the admin group will be enough depending on what you're doing. One example is if you go inte the Registry and try to remove some system keys. To remove these you must either add yourself to the trustee list for that object or take ownership of the object.

 

Although I do appreciate all input so far my main question was about specific P3D settings and tweaks good to know about to get the best possible result when it comes to performance and IQ rather than a lengthy discussion what name I should give my P3D folder :wink: I do feel fully confident when it comes to both that decision as well as having UAC enabled/disabled and Windows security in general. 

[SteveW 1,792]

 

If we don't have HT enabled, then the main reason to apply an AM is to restrict the threads to 3 or 5 cores. Allowing more than 5 cores on a 6 or 8 core CPU interrupts the main thread with too many synchronisations, but maybe if we had 5+ GHz we can have more.

[JJJackson 22]

SteveW

 

The quote from PMDG is taken from the manual from their latest release of 737NGX (a week ago). So you rellay claim that you know more about this than the PMDG developers that have been testing this for a long time and come to another solution? Ok, I will not argue against you as I´m not a PC-guru, but it seems it´s you against the rest of the sim-world.  But based on what I have been reading from leading developers as PMDG/ORBX/FSDreamTeam and others I think IMHO I will sitck to their advice.  ^_^

 

Jack

the Swede in Spain

[SteveW 1,792]

One example is if you go inte the Registry and try to remove some system keys. To remove these you must either add yourself to the trustee list for that object or take ownership of the object.

Yes, those parts of the registry are only allowed to write by admins.

 

That is why user programs software compliant with Windows security only make changes to that when they install or remove the app. There are places in the registry for user access rights.

 

In short, if you have an app that needs access to the Admin area of the registry and it's just an FS addon or regular user app, then it was designed improperly.

[WebMaximus 372]

Well since you only have 4 cores HT=Off there's no room to swing the cat. Messing with any AM is likely to cause more trouble. I did say 4 cores = leave the AM out, or apply three cores and test.

 

But is P3D a multi-threaded application? Becuase if it's not I don't see why even bother thinking about HT or AM in the first place?

 

Of course you can use AM to force the app to run on a specific set of cores and maybe that in some situation could be a good thing giving you better performance but just as I previously said that's not always the case and you might in fact end up with a decrease in performance and an increase in stutters etc. So as for the AM I think the best thing you can do is give it a try and see what works best in your situation depending on your hardware and flight sim setup in general. As we all know it can often be very hard to understand how two computers appearing to be the very same still can give you a very different result when it comes to both performance and IQ.

[SteveW 1,792]

Yes, P3D is a multi-threaded app.

 

So you rellay claim that you know more about this than the PMDG developers

I don't think I said that, and I don't appreciate your inflammation. But none of my apps use admin parts of the registry or expect write access to read only files. I have been writing windows apps since before Win95.

 

Read my post again.

 

"Yes, that's as maybe, but back when Win XP was around we had Admin Rights and access to the "Read Only" program Files folders.

 

Unfortunately some addons installed files into that folder, even though they had to be able to Write to some of those files outside of an installation, logged on as a User. There are proper directories for files to be updated, but still the addons placed them in the read only folder because it seemed to work OK (since we were Admins).

 

But now we don't get automatic access to those folders, and so devs like PMDG and others found it necessary to advise against using the Program Files folders, because the permissions were not fully understood. If you ask any of them now you may find another explanation.

 

Addons designed to work with Windows security in mind did not place updateable files in the installation folder but used the read/write folders, to avoid problems with tighter security in the future (now).

"

 

Not my fault, just saying how it is. Installing read writeable files into the read only system is technically wrong.

 

 

Of course you can use AM to force the app to run on a specific set of cores and maybe that in some situation could be a good thing giving you better performance but just as I previously said that's not always the case and you might in fact end up with a decrease in performance and an increase in stutters etc.

I know I'm flogging a dead horse but I said "If we don't have HT enabled, then the main reason to apply an AM is to restrict the threads..." we don't want too many threads and that's not going to happen on your 4 core.

[WebMaximus 372]

OK, that's cool P3D is a true multi-threaded app that can actually make good use of lots of cores. I didn't know that!

 

As for this lengthy security discussion I do appreciate where you're coming from Steve and it's very good to hear how you see things writing your own apps. Of course you're fully correct having an app installing files that need to be writable into a read-only location is very poor design and of course same thing goes for the registry.

 

Now I'm off doing a P3D installation :smile:

[SteveW 1,792]

OK, that's cool P3D is a true multi-threaded app that can actually make good use of lots of cores. I didn't know that!

 

As for this lengthy security discussion I do appreciate where you're coming from Steve and it's very good to hear how you see things writing your own apps. Of course you're fully correct having an app installing files that need to be writable into a read-only location is very poor design and of course same thing goes for the registry.

 

Now I'm off doing a P3D installation :smile:

I appreciate than Man, I'm only telling it like it is. I think you're well clued up enough to get your sim sorted into a slick setup. I think you're going to like P3D, 2.5 is smooth.

[WebMaximus 372]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it!

 

And thanks again to everyone in here who provided lots of great tips!

[SteveW 1,792]

Go easy at first with the sliders and IQ. There's a point where if you cross it you'll get stutters but still have high fps.

 

Make sure the Menu is hidden (hold down ALT to hide) when testing and making judgements, the sim will stutter with the menu showing.

 

P3D has a richer, more detailed view than FSX, so the sliders bring it on more quickly and heavily than FSX and can catch you out, so go easy at first.

[WebMaximus 372]

Thanks, will be very easy on my hand at first when it comes to all the sliders.

 

Are there any specific sliders I should be extra careful with in the same way there may be sliders that are pretty safe to move to the right without affecting performance too much?