Unable 270 Kts at XXXX

[Oliver Branaschky 2]

 

 

They're filed in the plan as a contingency for lost comms. That way the ATC facility knows what you're going to do if you lose comms. That being said, you do not select it on the DEP/ARR page until the STAR is assigned by the controller.

 

Actually, since you file the STAR and then get your clearance "as filed" or - and I don't exactly know if it's Germany-specific or not - "flight planned route", you're cleared to fly the STAR all the way to the clearance limit, which is either your destination airport ("cleared to destination Hamburg") or a certain waypoint that is explicitly named in the STAR chart, for instance NOLGO in Hamburg (see here).

 

Of course, more often than not you'd get cleared again for the STAR (talking VATSIM here), just to make sure. Or you get vectored right away or get cleared to fly a transition, which is basically just an overlay to the radar vector pattern. But yes, Michael, it's more likely to fly a transition or get vectored than to fly the STAR. But then again, lots of transitions begin at the clearance limit of the STAR (see here)...

 

Does that make sense?

 

Regards

Oliver

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

But then again, lots of transitions begin at the clearance limit of the STAR (see here)...

 

...which pretty much confirms everything I said in my earlier post:

 

Since the clearance limit is the beginning of the STAR, if you're still talking to the controller, then you do need a specific assignment and clearance to continue. Lost comms, you proceed AVEF (assigned, vectored, expected, filed), which means that unless a controller has told you otherwise, you fly what you filed. For both of those STARs you linked to, I can't begin flying them until I get a clearance past that end fix (or the beginning fix of the STAR).

[Oliver Branaschky 2]

I see now what you're getting at. NOLGO was a badly chosen example on my part. The thing is, that if you file a STAR and get cleared "flight planned route" this clearance includes the STAR as well, unless you hit a clearance limit on your way.

 

It all comes down to "read the charts" :wink:

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I see now what you're getting at. NOLGO was a badly chosen example on my part. The thing is, that if you file a STAR and get cleared "flight planned route" this clearance includes the STAR as well, unless you hit a clearance limit on your way.

 

It all comes down to "read the charts" :wink:

 

Makes perfect sense. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I just haven't come across an airport that doesn't have a clearance limit right at the beginning. Then again - admittedly - I haven't been doing much flying in Europe.

[ErichB 3,642]

Have to say, since moving from terrible ATC software is a major difference

 

Agree.  Its one of the best changes I have ever made to my flightsimming.

[Driver170 42]

Its brilliant i have model matching with my my traffic 6 and its great seeing BA and EZY at the gates!

 

Yest i flew to LPPT following a BA over the bay of biscay, his contrails was just next door to my other airway

[ErichB 3,642]

Its brilliant i have model matching with my my traffic 6 and its great seeing BA and EZY at the gates!

 

Yest i flew to LPPT following a BA over the bay of biscay, his contrails was just next door to my other airway

 

I can't wait to track a contrail on VATSIM.    Yesterday I flew EGKK-LDSP  and return, but everything was fairly quiet until I got back to a very busy, rainy London airspace with ATC

[Driver170 42]

Yeh had alot of TCU around EGCC at south of london CTR when i departed!

 

Its brilliant knowing its not AI

[pcubine 143]

Little bit of a mis-interpretation, I believe.

From the German Vatsim chart showing STARS for Frankfurt. This is boxed and printed in red for emphasis.

 

 

"STARs are not used as normal procedure at Frankurt

 

Used as Lost Com procedure only.

 

Transition to Final Approach used instead as Standard Arrival

see Transition Charts / GPS/FMS RNAV Arrival.

 

Expect South-Transition leading to South-RWY as Standard."

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

From the German Vatsim chart showing STARS for Frankfurt. This is boxed and printed in red for emphasis.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't trust VATSIM as a factual aviation source.

 

Regardless, where do you load this procedure?

[pcubine 143]

Regardless, where do you load this procedure?

I am not sure I understand what you mean. A link to it or where does it go into the FMC?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I am not sure I understand what you mean. A link to it or where does it go into the FMC?

 

Where does one load a transition procedure in the FMC?

[pcubine 143]

For EDDF say the arrival is from the west via UNOKO and the runway is 25L. Press DEP/ARR key and select the correct RTE from the INDEX. On the EDDF ARRIVALS page select ILS25L under approaches and UNO25S.25L under Stars and execute.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

and UNO25S.25L under Stars

 

Exactly. That's what I was looking for. A Transition is really a STAR. They're just calling it something different. I haven't the slightest clue why they'd duplicate functions like that and add confusion with new names, but this is why the system in the United States doesn't fully subscribe to the ICAO system: some of the stuff going on in the rest of the world just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

STAR: simplifies a transition between en route and approach segments of flight.

Transition: simplifies a transition between en route and approach segments of flight.

 

I don't usually take too many shots at Germany (though I do give my German friend a hard time for being so stereotypical), but this one has me scratching my head. Perhaps it's an attempt to make a lost comms aircraft more obvious on a scope (though I'm not sure how a 7600 code would be subtle), and to deconflict them procedurally. Still, I'd love to hear some type of rationalization on this.

[pcubine 143]

Exactly. That's what I was looking for. A Transition is really a STAR. They're just calling it something different.

I see what to are saying now.

 

Vatsim Germany calls them Transition to Final Approach and Navigraph labels them as Transition to Final Approach which now that I see them in the same sentence are the same. Anyway they are an odd duck. You could be abeam the airport and still have 70 miles remaining to fly. However, the charts say that vectors can be expected on the downwind. Using these is almost like your trip didn't really start until the descent into EDDF.