NWA A319 accidentaly lands at KRCA instead of KRAP

[rickalty 0]

The astonishing thing about that one is that the in-flight map in the cabin was apparently showing them on their way to Brussels for some time before the landing, so all the pax knew they were going to the wrong airport, but requests to the cabin crew as to "why?" were brushed off, and none of the cabin staff asked the flight deck crew why they'd been diverted to Brussels, assuming that the pilots would give them 'the word' when they had time.Richard

[NWATech 95]

These guy's are toast. Not only landing at an Air Force base, the runway they landed on, was closed!There were contractors working on it at the time, no one hurt, they saw the a/c coming and ran.Makes me wonder too! How? (-:

[Guest j-mo]

Holy KRAAAAAA........, er, COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-eek Alex M.

[Guest]

everybody makes mistakes, why the harsh comments directed at the pilots? Sure it seems like a big mistake, but weird things happen, if they lose their jobs I think thats a little too overboard

[brucek 38]

There's no margin for error in real flying, let alone an airline that is publicly embarrassed and may need to be seen to take some action.I think the issue is more one that the FAA will pull the licenses, so these people will not be able to fly again. Landing at an AFB without a genuine emergency is very tough stuff, especially since 9/11.Bruce.

[rickalty 0]

"Sure it seems like a big mistake, but weird things happen, if they lose their jobs I think thats a little too overboard"I don't. The runway was closed for maintainence, with people working on it. What if there'd been a trench across it and the plane had dropped its wheels into the trench, crashed and burned ?The answer to this sort of boo-boo is procedure, procedure, procedure. Had the pilots carried out their landing procedures strictly by the book, 'the book' would have saved their licenses.Richard

[Guest Tim757]

Richard--tad too simple...Well, what "landing procedure" are you refering too? The one that says "When runway environment is in sight continue visually and land?"The crew may very well have ID any nav-aids then went visual...from a human factors standpoint they very well have done things by "the book." I'll wait for the CVR to see what they were thinking. They may have switched their NAV display off of "MAP" to "ILS" or "EHSI"-I am not sure of the poodle requirements as far as cockpit display set-ups are concerned.I looked in the SMAC and SOPA and didn't actually "see" one that said "Identify if the airport is proper airfield". I have flown into the same airport from many different directions and it may be the same airport but look totally different, even the same runway under different conditions will appear different. And at time, unlike the "Wonderful World of MSFS" it is very hard to even spot the airport when it is surrounded by "clutter" that blends it in.At that point I am using my judgement that that is the correct airport. That judgement may include input(sometimes conflicting input) from crew, ATC, on-board info etc. But once I go "eyes-out" there is very little reference to the RADIO-NAV side of the approach. At that point I am concerned about airspeed, attitude, traffic, TCAS, runway conditions, making the midfield turn-off, VASI/PAPPI path, ATC. Ever notice in a huds-up display there isn't much displayed that is NAV related that shows the source of the signal or the airport you are aimed at? Do I want, on short finally when I am trying to heard a bunch a cats, the FO to chime "Hmmmm, is this the right airport?" on each and every approach? And the crew in question may have been following the correct procedure-they had the runway enviroment in site, at the "precieved" correct visual location and landed visually. I'd like to hear the ATC transcripts and see if ATC said something like "The airport is at your 12 o'clock, cleared for the visual...". And guess what caught the crews eyes? All four eyeballs? As far as the runway being closed for painting I have to wait till I see what the investigation says, but somehow in the back of my mind I wonder if the runway had the big "X" on it that would have REALLY cued the crew that something was "amiss" in their plan. Spotting a maintenance crew/vehicle is actually a lot tougher than it sounds-ask any line-pilot who has "plowed into" a vehicle doing a runway incursion drill in the simulator during training or a PC. Of course if that big ol' "X" was there on the runway the crew is "cooked".Actually we get "set-up" a lot of times in the sims to combat complaciancy and over-reliance on the automation. The crafty instructors will create a session where judgemnt has to over-rule the input.I suggest that you read this month's editorial in "Professional Pilot" magazine about the difference between "Button Pushers" and pilots.Procedures will help any operation up to a point-and only to that point. The rest is judgement and the excercise of authority. Be it in the flight deck, control room of a nuclear plant or operating theater.That's why there are Captains, pilots and "button pushers"....Tim757

[Guest]

God!It makes one think if those pilots where paying attention to what they were doing, and whether they had done any good preparation before landing i.e. LOOKING AT THE AIRPORT CHART! :-lol. - that alone would give you the location as well as the number of runways etc.Maybe they inputted the wrong airport code into the FMC, who knows....."Thank you for flying with Northwest Airlines, we hope you don't have too much trouble getting to the correct airport, like we did" lolhttp://www.onlinesimulationsolutions.com/sigs/wdosssig.jpg

[Guest Martin]

>Maybe they inputted the wrong airport code into the FMC, who>knows..Yes, maybe one of them didn't want to put KRAP into the MCDU scratchpad. ;-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[rickalty 0]

Incidentally, I downloaded the approach plates for KRAP... they all show Ellsworth AFB right on the approach chart - you virtually overfly Ellsworth if coming in to KRAP on Rwy 14. You'd think at some point in the flight, one of the pilots would have looked at the plate and said "Hmm, couple of miles out we're going to almost overfly a USAF runway pointed in the same direction. Better look out for that, hadn't we?"http://members.aol.com/rickalty/KRAP.pdfRichard

[Guest Martin]

Yep, that's what I thought. I wouldn't be surprised if the chart will have a note along the lines of "DO NOT mistake Ellsworth AFB for Rapid City" in the future.Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

[Guest Tim757]

Well-the USAF who handles approach responsibilities for KRAP are changing their procedures....Associate Press story reports that when they are working visual traffic the controllers issue a verbal warning to the pilots that Ellsworth is nearby and don't mistake the two....now they are doing it to aircraft on instrument approaches.I would be very surprised, and saddened, if the airbus crew did not perform an arrival brief prior to starting the approach. This is generally a run-down of the information on the approach chart and expectations. But that generally is done well before getting into the terminal area when the flightdeck work-load is at its maximum.The one thing everyone seems to be thinking here is the instrument approach goes to the touchdown....when in fact even an instrument approach has a very real visual component (OK other that CAT III stuff for you nit-pickers). And when the runway "environment" is in sight the crew is eyeballs out.Anybody know what approach were they cleared for? Tim757

[rickalty 0]

VOR to 14, according to the article I read. The ceiling was about 4 - 5 thousand. If they were right on the line they should have come out of the clouds damn near over Ellsworth, maybe a mile short of it. To have seen it early enough to make a landing they must have been well under the slope for KRAP.Richard

[Guest Tim757]

The VOR approach is not a precision approach. They would not have had a glideslope indication if the NAV was set to the VOR unless NWA had preloaded VOR approaches in the airbus with an artificial one meeting the crossing restrictions. I haven't had the pleasure (nor do I want it) of flying the airbus so I am not sure what their avionics are capable of.In the 757 there is the unofficial "trick" of trying to place the green arc on the ND on the runway but that, in my opinon, is much more trouble than its worth."Ceiling" could be a broken cloud deck or greater coverage so they very well may have had the runway (or glimpses of one) prior to descending through 4-5,000' cloud deck. Sometimes what is broken to one is scattered to another observer. Sounds like they tracked the needle, saw the runway and landed. I suppose once they had the runway they disregarded any crossing restrictions (if they had any) and the clock. They may not even really concerned themselves with the full approach since they were aware of the ceiling and dropped to the MDA-radar track will tell that story.They had to be stabilized in the approach to make the runway or they would have been grabbing a lot of flaps/gear at the last moment-but seems like doing a dive at the last second would trigger a "Aww explitive deleted" response and a go-around (unless the poodle is very responsive to flaps and gear commands).I am not sure if the NW airbus FMC has preloaded VOR approaches or if the crew had to build it.Tim757

[Guest Martin]

The IAF for the VOR 14 approach is actually abeam Ellsworth.http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approa...s/00877VT14.PDFI don't see how anyone executing a VOR approach could mistake the two airports. I've read somewhere (not sure if it was here or at PPRuNe) that they were on a visual approach. If they were it's more understandable that it happened, but still it shouldn't have happened if they had checked with the RAP VOR, or simply the map on the ND.What's next, an aural warning if an aircraft descends below, say 500 ft more than 1-2 nm from the destination airport?Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing