Upgrading to P3D

[77west 139]

 

 

That is, cost divided by number of hours flown = less then a soda per day and getting less by the day. Certainly less then a serious night out on the town!

 

Spot on mate that's how I look at it. Last year I spent $2500 on rental DVD's (and fines). And most of them were rubbish anyhow. I can spend in one week the entire 777 purchase price on a few bottles of wine. One nice dinner at a restaurant is about 2x the price of the 777. Puts it in perspective right?

[lukehall 10]

I barely feel brave enough to chime in here but hey, here goes...

 

I have recently swapped years of FSX flying for a new P3D set up and now that I have it running sweetly, there is no doubt in my mind that it is a far better platform - one which will hopefully offer us an improvement and development path for years to come.

 

I own the 777200 & 300ER and the NGX and fully appreciate that they represent the epitome of detailed flight simulation on a home platform right now. They were fully worth the price I paid considering the sheer level of work which has obviously gone into them.

 

I only fly PMDG in P3D (and the same went for FSX) so the first thing I purchased after upgrading was the NGX. It cost me around £50. Despite keeping my ear close to the ground, their promotional offer for FSX users completely passed me by because other commitments kept me completely out of the loop for several months and I simply didn't know it was happening. That's OK - I didn't mind paying the full price for the NGX. I got a shock though when I calculated that to purchase the 777 & 300ER for P3D is going to cost me an additional £100 because it is considerably more expensive than the NGX.

 

I'll never use FSX again or the PMDG aircraft I purchased for it. I completely accept that PMDG have priced P3D products as they have as it is their prerogative and their business. They are unique though because I have been able to migrate the hundreds of pounds worth of other scenery/utilities etc for no additional cost - all of which were also created by businesses.

 

Despite not being able to take advantage of it, offering a discounted upgrade path was bang on but making it time limited (for existing FSX owners of the 777 & NGX) was disappointing and will deter me from purchasing a new 777 for the time being or at all - not because I can't afford it but because it feels a bit like I'm over a barrel, and that's only because I'd really like to own it in P3D! :-)

 

I would certainly like to see PMDG shift a little further into the middle ground with regard to offering an upgrade path - even if it is not as generous as the original offer. I am sure that the measure of good will and positive PR will more than cement future loyalty and pay for itself in the long run. It is after all a 'feel good' hobby!

 

I have read the debates and understand the reasoning, so don't attack me because I'm merely thinking out aloud, not complaining!

 

Best wishes,

 

Luke

[N405GJ 36]

I barely feel brave enough to chime in here but hey, here goes...

 

I have recently swapped years of FSX flying for a new P3D set up and now that I have it running sweetly, there is no doubt in my mind that it is a far better platform - one which will hopefully offer us an improvement and development path for years to come.

 

I own the 777200 & 300ER and the NGX and fully appreciate that they represent the epitome of detailed flight simulation on a home platform right now. They were fully worth the price I paid considering the sheer level of work which has obviously gone into them.

 

I only fly PMDG in P3D (and the same went for FSX) so the first thing I purchased after upgrading was the NGX. It cost me around £50. Despite keeping my ear close to the ground, their promotional offer for FSX users completely passed me by because other commitments kept me completely out of the loop for several months and I simply didn't know it was happening. That's OK - I didn't mind paying the full price for the NGX. I got a shock though when I calculated that to purchase the 777 & 300ER for P3D is going to cost me an additional £100 because it is considerably more expensive than the NGX.

 

I'll never use FSX again or the PMDG aircraft I purchased for it. I completely accept that PMDG have priced P3D products as they have as it is their prerogative and their business. They are unique though because I have been able to migrate the hundreds of pounds worth of other scenery/utilities etc for no additional cost - all of which were also created by businesses.

 

Despite not being able to take advantage of it, offering a discounted upgrade path was bang on but making it time limited (for existing FSX owners of the 777 & NGX) was disappointing and will deter me from purchasing a new 777 for the time being or at all - not because I can't afford it but because it feels a bit like I'm over a barrel, and that's only because I'd really like to own it in P3D! :-)

 

I would certainly like to see PMDG shift a little further into the middle ground with regard to offering an upgrade path - even if it is not as generous as the original offer. I am sure that the measure of good will and positive PR will more than cement future loyalty and pay for itself in the long run. It is after all a 'feel good' hobby!

 

I have read the debates and understand the reasoning, so don't attack me because I'm merely thinking out aloud, not complaining!

 

Best wishes,

 

Luke

This represents exactly how I feel. I miss flying the NGX and T7, but my real life finances prevent me from repurchasing both products. Technically, I am still paying off the ones I already own on my credit card. Fortunately I have other aircraft that I enjoy, and others that I am actively testing, that take up the majority of my free time.

 

And yes, I can understand the cost of multiple nights out on the town versus the cost per hour to fly the aircraft, but for those of us who do not go out and party, go to dinner, etc, because of our personal financial situation this argument is somewhat invalid.

 

I have read Kyle's responses and explanations as to their reasoning behind their pricing structure, and that is their decision. That does not mean I have to like it. As I have said previously, I will vote with my wallet on this topic. As I am sure many others have. Weather or not they come to this forum and express that they are voting with their wallet is something that cannot be told. Which leads PMDG to have no idea as to how many potential sales they have lost due to their policy. But this does not seem to be a concern of staff at PMDG.

[eurowing 13]

Last year I spent $2500 on rental DVD's (and fines).

dude!

[77west 139]

dude!

 

I have Netflix now...

[Irishcurse 234]

 

I wonder if something can be done for existing customers, especially if Prepar3D goes over to 64GB at least most customers will leave there FSX version in the shelf.

 

 

 

PMDG has stated they will support a 64 bit P3D upgrade at no cost. Upgrades of P3d through 3.x will also be supported. Its a different platform. Contrary to what people say about it being the same product as FSX it isn't. We would all like things to be less expensive but we can't always get what we want

[lukehall 10]

I wouldn't mind so much if the 777 for P3D wasn't so much more expensive than for FSX. I can't see what the reason for that is...

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Which leads PMDG to have no idea as to how many potential sales they have lost due to their policy. But this does not seem to be a concern of staff at PMDG.

 

Watching sales statistics is a good enough proxy.

 

I wouldn't mind so much if the 777 for P3D wasn't so much more expensive than for FSX. I can't see what the reason for that is...

 

See here:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/461729-08feb15-p3d-pricing-policy-some-facts-on-this-issue/

 

Specifically this part:

When we announced development for P3D 18 months ago, we were very candid about the fact that our P3D products will be significantly more expensive than our FSX products.  This is true because we envision P3D as the home for our enterprise and professional products, in keeping with P3D's place in the enterprise market.  P3D is a growing, in-development platform that will be constantly changing and evolving to meet the needs of the professional simulation market.  With this in mind, it is thus not sufficient for PMDG to finish a product and simply toss it to the marketplace forever.  We will need to invest developer time and effort to continually adapt our P3D products to version changes, as well as adding new features as they come available in P3D.  This is a different approach than we use in FSX, and it is a different approach than is used by most other developers whose products are targeted to the entertainment market only.  Use of developer time is an opportunity cost, and we must carefully weigh the value of placing a developer on one project as opposed to another.  These are economic considerations that must be dealt with because we envision our P3D product line as a constantly evolving, growing, professional development environment.  P3D is a professional tool targeted to professional and academic users and our P3D business model moves us in that direction.

 

 

[skelsey 765]

 

 

I wouldn't mind so much if the 777 for P3D wasn't so much more expensive than for FSX. I can't see what the reason for that is...

 

As Kyle explains, you're playing in a different market.

 

(The following is a general comment not aimed specifically at you.)

 

This is one of the reasons why I have real concerns about the damage P3D has the potential to do to our hobby and why I refuse to get sucked in to buying it. It has filled a vacuum left because of the current lack of a successor to FSX, but it is not, and never has been, a replacement for FSX.

 

It is a professional simulator, being sold to commercial training organisations. If you want to play with commercial-level software, you're going to have to get used to paying commercial-level prices, I'm afraid, and that goes for developers other than PMDG as well.

 

It's not unusual outside of FS either: plenty of companies have different (often radically different) pricing structures for commercial vs non-commmercial use. P3D is by definition a commercial simulator: the EULA does not permit for personal entertainment use, so it's not unreasonable to price products accordingly.

 

Ultimately, if you don't want to pay the commercial prices involved in P3D, the solutions are to either go and buy X-Plane or wait for Dovetail to come out with the consumer-level sim they have under development.

[Wobbie 938]

Just my little chirp....

Something to be aware of, & to remember, is that P3D is NOT an upgrade of anything else. It is a TOTALY new & separate simulation from a unique (separate) company & MUST be regarded as that. Yes, there are simularities!

 

We did not see people asking for discount with the DCP add-ons for FSX:SE or the guys that moved from FSX to X-Plane asking for discounts from Carenado, as they make add-ons for both!

 

BTW, did you ask Microsoft for a discount when & if upgrading from their Office editions or, in the past when upgrading operating systems? I think not, so why should anybody request discounts now?

 

As skelsey says.. " Ultimately, if you don't want to pay the commercial prices involved in P3D, the solutions are to either go and buy X-Plane or wait for Dovetail to come out with the consumer-level sim they have under development."

[JohnCKnapp 1]

Those of you who migrated from FSX to P3D, did you get a discount from LM when you bought P3D?

 

John Knapp

[Guest]

This is one of the reasons why I have real concerns about the damage P3D has the potential to do to our hobby and why I refuse to get sucked in to buying it. It has filled a vacuum left because of the current lack of a successor to FSX, but it is not, and never has been, a replacement for FSX

 

It's whatever you want it to be ... the barriers you've imposed on yourself are yours and yours alone.  Many people have replaced FSX with P3D (myself included) so in my mind and other's yes P3D is a replacement for FSX.  Will everyone replace FSX with P3D ... I doubt it, for a variety of reasons ... to each his or her own.

 

Not all 3rd party content providers are interpreting the commercial tag as PMDG have done ... in fact, very few are making a distinction ... but it's entirely up to the 3rd party content provider to decide what they want to offer and how much they want to offer it for.

 

 

 

P3D is by definition a commercial simulator: the EULA does not permit for personal entertainment use, so it's not unreasonable to price products accordingly.

 

Are you a qualified Judge that can set legal precedence pertaining specifically to these matters?  Obviously not, because if you were you would be violating your Oath to discuss such matters publicly.  P3D EULA discussions are not permitted, consider this a warning.

 

 

 

Ultimately, if you don't want to pay the commercial prices involved in P3D, the solutions are to either go and buy X-Plane or wait for Dovetail to come out with the consumer-level sim they have under development.

 

Again, you have no legal authority and should NOT be providing legal advice here please refrain from such statements.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[lukehall 10]

Not all 3rd party content providers are interpreting the commercial tag as PMDG have done ... in fact, very few are making a distinction ... but it's entirely up to the 3rd party content provider to decide what they want to offer and how much they want to offer it for.

 

Rob, I think your comment here is fairly poignant - Based on the fact that the majority of 3rd parties have chosen not to charge for a distinctive P3D license and have provided installers to their existing users specifically for P3D demonstrates that the situation is open to interpretation.  Presumably, the overwhelming majority of us discussing the matter on forums are using P3D for either "Academic" or "professional" purposes, and PMDG could achieve a level of parity with LM by offering an Academic license of their own. This would maintain PMDG's position whilst offering what I suspect is a significant proportion of their users a more achievable route to ownership.

 

I remain very much "on the fence" from a personal point of view and am able to fully understand the perspective from both sides. As many have said, PMDG are perfectly justified in making the interpretation that they have and ultimately that's something anyone who wants to use their products will have to respect. It raises a question as to what has motivated 'most' other developers to openly offer their products specifically for P3D without going down PMDG's chosen path, and why such a disparity in stances exists. I wouldn't argue against the stance that P3D is a different platform to FSX - of course it is. Ultimately though, while there is room for developers to decide for themselves how to offer their products to P3D users, the market will decide. 

 

Best wishes,

Luke

[scandinavian13 5,192]

PMDG could achieve a level of parity with LM by offering an Academic license of their own.

 

 

...except this isn't where the issue lies, and this is why I get pretty frustrated with the assertions people are making regarding P3D: most of them show a complete lack of understanding of the intricacies of what is required of businesses to ensure that their hind quarters are covered to ensure they can continue to operate - financially, or legally. I can't blame people entirely, because I know many here haven't studied business and/or law, but it's best to withhold judgment or assumptions until a situation is understood.

 

I won't go into more detail about our specific case, but I can provide you (and other interested people here) a link to a post made a while back by RSR that points to the very delicate balance of the agreements here: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/426627-a-few-notes-regarding-pmdgs-position-on-p3d-development/

 

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On that note, since this one is beginning to get into the EULA discussions that aren't allowed here (AVSIM-wide rule), and there are more than a few bits of information floating about that border on other legal discussions, I'm going to close this one down.