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srborick

The New Faster, Leaner Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium is Now Available for Your Input

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This was already addressed earlier, saying this would cost 300 million is absolutely ludicrous.

 

It's going to be based off a terrain generator to pre-gen the world and the vegetation can be purchased (there is so much vegetation out there already for licensing, you don't need to make it).

 

GTA V was 125 million in development and 125 million in marketing, go look at the Wiki. We are not trying to build GTA V, first it has tons of missions, 100+ car models, even more planes than we'd even need to do. It also has flying and driving, crazy physics, tons of guns, explosions. This project isn't even 10% of what GTA V is (ok well almost 10%, since 10% would be 12.5 mil). It was hand rendered and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of custom people animations doing all kinds of crazy things. There is also what I call the bureaucratic principle, where a company half the size can usually work 50% faster, not twice as fast, but 50% faster. Meaning sometimes a higher skilled better picked dev team of 25 can do the work of 40+ or more, especially with less bureaucratic obstacles.

 

There are plenty of things that have been developed with a budget around 10 million that did NOT even use a terrain generator, where they custom rendered the game. As a matter of fact, the average major game title only had around 25-50 million budgeted for the development side, as documented in the wiki, and most of those games were much more complex than doing a basic flight sim, so those 50+ million budgets are a rarity.

 

Things other games use, that a Flight Sim does not need:

1) Major voice actors in games, in a SIM you may need a couple guys for ATC and what not, but nothing major

2) In regular games, you need a lot more complex sound effects and body animations, you need body suits and actors to do the animations.

3) More complex and ordered missions

4) More explosion variety, a hand rendered world that has to look very good both close up and far away (the SIM will look good close up, but it doesn't need to look GTA V good close up, except maybe on the hangars and runway areas)

5) Sometimes a custom musical score, and often lots of music licensing (with a Sim maybe license one thing, if that)
6) More custom renders because you are providing an "in-your-face" detailed world, we aren't going to rendering boxes of cheerios sitting on Grandma's table like GTA V had to do.

7) Clothing outfits, heck GTA V probably spent 5 million just rendering the clothes.

8) In regular games, there is a lot of pathing AI and enemy bot AI type stuff

9) It goes on and on...

 

All the supposed complexities that people bring up for a Flight Sim are often simplicities compared to regular game development, especially since there are already people from the former FSX community that can be contracted to greatly expedite the product. All the supposed impossible data to get, most of it is freely available for download from the GIS data sites.

So still don't see much validity to the arguments that a Flight Sim would cost more than a PC game, non-sense, not if you manage it correctly. Unlike a PC game, we have the resources already available, they just have to be managed correctly.

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Not only that GTA V had to build their own game engine (probably 25mil+ right there), and port the code to multiple devices (Xbox 360, Playstation, and PC). They had to write a bunch of C and C++ code.

 

Most games with over 50 million budgets either heavily customized an engine, or built one themselves. The comparison isn't even close to what we were discussing here.

 

So even despite the thousands of animations they did, hundreds of cut scenes, 50+ actors they hired, hundreds of detailed models (cars, planes, helicopters, buildings, houses, grass), tons of explosions, detailed car physics, music licensing, and the 125+ million they spent on marketing, well yah it's not HARD to blow 250+ mil from all that.

 

Almost none of the stuff listed above would even be tackled in a Flight Sim. Sure some basic car models (buy them), vegetation (doesn't have to be perfect close up), some explosions (but you can limit it), etc...

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...I don't think anyone is going to put up the realistic money between between $5 - $20 millions suggested here into another new flight simulator,...

 

... We have FSX-SE, Prepar3D 2.5, X-plane,and FlightGear - with DoveTail's new offering and a possible 64-bit Prepar3D in the future.

 

Agreed.  Not forgetting probably the best gaming engine for casual / fun flying available so far.......

 

https://youtu.be/gZzp9irhVx8?t=131

 

https://youtu.be/cXZJIPXPrdk?t=36

 

.

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Not forgetting probably the best gaming engine for casual / fun flying available so far.......

 

What, not a link to a FSX video?

 

I do love however how some here keep saying the same thing over and over again each time they post.

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I do love however how some here keep saying the same thing over and over again each time they post.

 

What you love..and how you love..is not my business!

;-)

 

Seriously though. The reason I posted the links to those GTA-5 flight videos was because GTA has been mentioned numerous times on this thread (and GTA was in fact the initial inspiration for Stephen to start his next-gen-flightsim project). 

 

I also posted the GTA links because there will be new visitors to this thread who may wish to see how GTA's engine looks in terms of scenery, crash modelling and fun / casual flying, especially since 'world' simulation is now apparently on the cards for this project...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHact2S06eo

 

Highway landing, almost

 

https://youtu.be/_dY5KwCgOIA?t=131

 

Airport mayhem...mission

(warning: gore at 6:14)

 

https://youtu.be/XPUL0qKPxIY?t=279

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Whether it costs $5 - $20 millions (or another figure) what's really important is how much it will earn - a fact that seem to be forgotten. Unless a philanthropist will offer it for free.

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"UNIQUE offer various licensing models for UNIGINE Sim and our licensing fees are customized based on the specific needs of each project.

 

Try out our Evaluation Kit to explore the full power of UNIGINE Sim and see for yourself how it can bring your projects to the next level.

 

The  Evaluation Kit is not available for the personal use."

 

 

The NGFS SIM-Posium actually does have access to the UNIGINE Sim evaluation kit and it's available to anyone who is willing to take the time to evaluate the engine and report their evaluation on the SIM-Posium. 

 

Again... access has been granted because someone took the time to ask.

 

So... all you folks out there who would like access to the UNIGINE Sim evaluation kit, please contact me via PM here on AVSIM or on the NGFS SIM-Posium. We could use your expertise.

 

Thanks,

Stephen B.

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I have to say I'm quite disappointed in Stephen over at the Sim-Posium for one of his latest comments posted on the forum over there.....

 

Stephen B wrote....

 

"...I had hoped..that the community would rally around such a project as the NGFS SIM-Posium if only to at least talk about and debate the current status of flight simulation and out of that conversation we would begin talks regarding the development of a new simulator. It appears that isn't happening.

However, there are a handful of us here on the SIM-Posium that actually have a clear...er... understanding of what new technologies can achieve and the benefits if we do embrace that technologies"   (end quotes)

---.

 

The reason I'm disappointed in the above quote from the Sim-Posium is because the AVSIM community has indeed rallied round Stephen's idea and has provided two threads with thousands of views worth of advice and comments for him to chew over on this forum, and he and some of his members have been constructively debating  here for a week or so;...yet Stephen appears to discount all of this then goes on to say that he and his small group of members have a clearer understanding of what new technologies can achieve.

 

..and he says all of this despite the fact that many seasoned and experienced devs and simmers on AVSIM have been part of the debate and have given Stephen lots and lots of advice on 'new technologies and the best way forward regarding a next-gen flightsim. 

 

To me it looks as if Stephen is unhappy because the community in general have not flocked to his website on masse,  and he somehow seems to be blaming we the community for a lack of trying, and for not joining his website, despite all that has been suggested to him so far by hundreds of well meaning members.

 

It seems to me that Stephen has two projects going on.  One is the Sim-Posium, and the other is the Nex-Gen-Flightsim...and he isn't happy unless simmers join the first in order to contribute to the second..

 

Strange but true.

 

BTW.  Anyone with an interest can ask for the UNIGINE Sim evaluation kit

 

https://unigine.com/evalkit/

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The NGFS SIM-Posium actually does have access to the UNIGINE Sim evaluation kit and it's available to anyone who is willing to take the time to evaluate the engine and report their evaluation on the SIM-Posium.

 

How can I download it onto my PC?

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Sure, and we've discussed such multi-sims in the past many times and I feel its a good thing to aim for.  But my point is that Stephen in not only proposing to change the name of his project to The NexGen World Simulator but is also proposing to .. "move into a direction that first creates the World we play in and then builds upon that world through all different kinds of simulation..

 

Like I said, its a change of direction and an expansion on the original remit, which for the reasons I mentioned earlier, ring a few alarm bells for me.

 

But at the end of the day I don't think it really matters as its still just discussion, albeit a slightly different discussion..with nothing concrete as of yet.

 

Just my tuppence worth.

 

First of all you need to understand that the proposal is just that... a proposal. And the proposal was conceived based upon the input that we've received not only on the NGFS SIM-Posium but here on AVSIM as well.

 

Second, the proposal doesn't divert the goal of a next generation flight simulator but expands the possibilities. Creating a world to play in that would sustain all types of simulations provides a bases that address some of the concerns mentioned in the two forums.... one being the ability to attract others as well as allowing a system that would continually increase the fidelity of a flight simulator.

 

This isn't a new concept on the SIM-Posium as the idea of creating a living world has been tossed around since the onset. There's an interesting subject being discussed on the SIM-Posium on how all of these different sims could provide a world that is more realistic for flying and at the same time attract myriad of others who may not necessary want to fly.

 

The proposal to change the name would coincide with the direction that would not only better state what the Living World would be to all potential users, but would allow others to see past the initial steps to create just a flight simulator.

 

Stephen B. 

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First of all you need to understand that the proposal is just that... a proposal.

 

Oh I understand all-right. That's why I wrote;  "Stephen is 'proposing' to make a world-simulator".  

 

It was your sudden change of direction and proposal to rename the website that rang alarm bells.

That's all.

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Whether it costs $5 - $20 millions (or another figure) what's really important is how much it will earn - a fact that seem to be forgotten. Unless a philanthropist will offer it for free.

 

This subject has been touched upon several times throughout this thread and the previous NGFS SIM-Posium thread. 

 

Crowdfunding is the new entity for obtaining the funds necessary for just about any project that you can think of. Now before anyone says... "ya... but you need thousands of people to want to pledge"... yep... you do. And gathering thousands of people begins with an idea and then expands upon that idea until more and more folks join together and make it happen.

 

As far as profits are concerned... This is a community driven simulator, whether it be just a flight community or we're able to enlist others outside the community we're only looking for enough profit to sustain the project. This isn't about anyone person or any company getting rich or making billions of dollars. We should have only one interest sustainability... ok two... and research and development.

 

Stephen B.

I have to say I'm quite disappointed in Stephen over at the Sim-Posium for one of his latest comments posted on the forum over there.....

 

Stephen B wrote....

 

"...I had hoped..that the community would rally around such a project as the NGFS SIM-Posium if only to at least talk about and debate the current status of flight simulation and out of that conversation we would begin talks regarding the development of a new simulator. It appears that isn't happening.

 

However, there are a handful of us here on the SIM-Posium that actually have a clear...er... understanding of what new technologies can achieve and the benefits if we do embrace that technologies"   (end quotes)

---.

 

The reason I'm disappointed in the above quote from the Sim-Posium is because the AVSIM community has indeed rallied round Stephen's idea and has provided two threads with thousands of views worth of advice and comments for him to chew over on this forum, and he and some of his members have been constructively debating  here for a week or so;...yet Stephen appears to discount all of this then goes on to say that he and his small group of members have a clearer understanding of what new technologies can achieve.

 

..and he says all of this despite the fact that many seasoned and experienced devs and simmers on AVSIM have been part of the debate and have given Stephen lots and lots of advice on 'new technologies and the best way forward regarding a next-gen flightsim. 

 

To me it looks as if Stephen is unhappy because the community in general have not flocked to his website on masse,  and he somehow seems to be blaming we the community for a lack of trying, and for not joining his website, despite all that has been suggested to him so far by hundreds of well meaning members.

 

It seems to me that Stephen has two projects going on.  One is the Sim-Posium, and the other is the Nex-Gen-Flightsim...and he isn't happy unless simmers join the first in order to contribute to the second..

 

Strange but true.

 

BTW.  Anyone with an interest can ask for the UNIGINE Sim evaluation kit

 

https://unigine.com/evalkit/

 

PropheadX...why do you insist on creating a mountain out of a mole hill?

 

Of course I appreciate the discussion here on AVSIM and it's only been over the past few days that the discussion has actually moved towards a more constructive direction. For that I'm extremely grateful.

 

I've even stated in the SIM-Posium that I was going to back off of AVSIM... because it feels like I'm butting heads over and over again.

 

Why in the world you would continue to try to make me out to be some kind of .... well you know... is beyond me... can you please cut it out.

 

By the way... anyone.... and I do mean anyone... who feels they can head up this effort to achieve a next generation flight simulator in a more professional and perhaps unbiased manner, please... by all means let me know. I have always maintained that the NGFS SIM-Posium was built for the community and within the community we would find the leadership to organize and maintain the momentum towards the development of a next generation flight simulator or a world simulator for that matter.

 

I do not want me or my inabilities to stop what is beginning to happen here.

 

Stephen B.

 

 

Oh I understand all-right. That's why I wrote;  "Stephen is 'proposing' to make a world-simulator".  

 

It was your sudden change of direction and proposal to rename the website that rang alarm bells.

That's all.

 

WHY the alarm bells? Spell it out...

 

Stephen B.

 

 

How can I download it onto my PC?

 

You have to first send me a PM and I would then add you to a list of team members who would have access. You would then be able to go on the UNIGINE Site and would then have access to the evaluation engine as well as documentation and the SDK.

 

It's perhaps a little more complex than that as we would certainly want folks who were actually interested in the success of the next generation flight simulator project.

 

Stephen B.

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Oh I understand all-right. That's why I wrote;  "Stephen is 'proposing' to make a world-simulator".  

 

It was your sudden change of direction and proposal to rename the website that rang alarm bells.

That's all.

 

What alarm bells? You keep talking of alarm bells. Do you think Stephen is going to break into your house in the dead of night and do unspeakable things to you? This is just histrionics. Are you just trying to pointscore or are you truly gripped by some terrible fear?

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You have to first send me a PM and I would then add you to a list of team members who would have access. You would then be able to go on the UNIGINE Site and would then have access to the evaluation engine as well as documentation and the SDK.

It's perhaps a little more complex than that as we would certainly want folks who were actually interested in the success of the next generation flight simulator project.

 

I'm afraid it's too complex for me - especially because I only have a passing interest in UNIQUE.

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