I think we can leave Simmarket out of it. They are well respected and have a proven track record. It took time for them to research the accusations, and this was over a weekend that also had a major European tradeshow. Remember Simmarket is only the retailer. They are not the developer or publisher.There could be more clarification on DBS, but to continue after Simmarket is a little extreme, in my opinion.Tony

This type of thing is caused by greed - $$$ are the motivating factor. Other than expensive legal action the best way to punish the perpetrator(s) is to boycott their product(s). I would also take it one step further, I would email the company and TELL them that I was boycotting their products. It's one thing just not to buy, it's another to let them know the reason. Possibly they will get the message.Just MHO - Visit the Virtual Pilot's Centerwww.flightadventures.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_proud_supporter.jpg

no, you're not that single individual. That individual is Joe who's stated goal is the end of commercial addons (as he's stated in these here forums several times in the past).I have nothing against you being angry for the unlicensed use of your work, don't get me wrong.What I do think is that you overreacted and aren't giving the other parties involved the chance to do what they need to do (legally and ethically) to correct the situation and find out how that situation could occur in the first place (in order to possibly pursue damages and prevent such things from happening again).Had you kept it private I feel that DSB would have been far more forthcoming in working with you than now that you have openly villified them not just once but regularly.As Karen has stated they are working internally to replace your work with their own in their product and providing that new work to all customers.There's little more they can do apart from working within the confines of Australian law to act against the contractor who is ultimately the responsible party in this (I imagine their contract with that person will not have included a clause that it was fine to steal intellectual property from others).As I don't know you well I don't know how sure you need to be to make such claims. Many people make claims like this (and worse) based on the flimsiest of evidence or even purely based on mallice.Again, I think you should have kept this private between you and DSB, maybe involve (privately) Simmarket or Avsim as well as they have serious clout with developers and the knowhow and manpower to act and investigate.Taking it public, especially in the way you did it, in the end hurts everyone. It makes you look like an overly agressive person who can't work with others to solve problems, it villifies DSB and Simmarket, and polarises the entire community.It may even make people who are thinking about creating their own addons give up because they feel the atmosphere in the community is such that they'll end up being attacked for no apparent reason at all.

**Lies, Smoke and Mirrors**As pointed out in the other thread, a member discovered something interesting.Rob wrote that he received a reply from DSB which stated this:From:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...74&page=#263494"For your information, whilst Mr Brice has had a contributing part in DSB Design in the past, he no longer does, apart from assisting in inquiries from customers. He has no financial gain from DSB Design apart from any sales made from his own products since the business was signed over to me earlier this year"**Now read the quote below which is from the first post in this thread and contrast and compare the statements by this alleged karen person who states this in their Smoke and Mirrors Routine. Note the words, "HE NO LONGER DOES""Whilst Mr. Brice is the person that runs all the collaboration with the contributors, design aspects, the collaboration of the designs etc, I am the one that administered responses to Mr. Barendregt, therefore I feel that it is my responsibility to follow this up, after all it seems to have caused a significant amount of confusion."You see, when people get caught lying, you can safely assume there may be more lies that have not come to the surface.So for those of you who want to give some benefit of the doubt to DSB, look at these two quotes. This Karen or whomever is writing now, says she is the one that replied to Rob, she then lied to him about Brice's role, or lied about stating what his role was, and/or what it is now. It doesn't matter which, the point is they LIED.Perhaps this Lie will be enough for SimMarket to pull all of their products. BE A LEADER, Don't reward them.Folks, it is time to take a stand, either you support a stand against Piracy and this type of behavior, or you embrace it as a part of this hobby.Someone commented is this a "You're either with us or against us analogy" (paraphrasing). In my opinion, that is exactly what this is.If you don't take a stand NOW, then other elements see the community won't come together to stop Piracy, and its Business as usual.Doing what is Right takes leadership.Some sites (Multiple) have removed this topic from their forums deciding to stick their heads in the sand instead of taking a stand. I want to commend AVSIM for keeping this topic at the forefront, as when it comes to Piracy, it is a leech that needs to be stopped.You would think that all sites, and all developers would chime in with their support, and host discussions on this.We need to set examples that imply repercussions to Piracy to thwart would be thieves from doing this in the future. The silence of some of these payware developers in this discussion is somewhat puzzling. It is nice to see some of them here though.Some of you say SimMarket should not remove the other DSB Products. Well, I guess the Dollar is more important than the integrity of doing what is right for the community.So it all continues as Lies, Smoke and Mirrors.Regards,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

Jeroen,This is about Piracy, which I have always been against, and I have a track record here of stating so. I am a firm believer in the intellectual work and rights of others. That is why I am passionate about this.As to your belief that it is my stated goal of ending all commercial add-ons, that is false as well. You say I stated that in the forums, prove it and post it in the Hangar Chat.Your statement doesn't make sense, this is an issue that is at the heart of Payware, and I have also stated support for payware here multiple times. The payware community has always complained of Piracy, and then when it appears, there is silence from those sites. It's hypocritical that when given a choice to be involved, some of them choose to put their collective heads in the sand.See my last post below about how DSB has now been caught Lying about Brice's involvement.Rob tried to take care of this in private and they lied to him. Now he took action here, which is commendable. By doing so, the topic of Piracy is now forefront, and people do have a choice, openly support property or simply hide in the sand. At least Avsim isn't hiding in the sand, and is supporting this topic.As to your statement of DSB being a victim. Jeroen, answer me this. If DSB is a Victim, why did they LIE? Think about that before you answer.And what I have said here is Truth, and as long as I type what is true, you should at least accept people have a right to have an opinion on this.My very first post in the other thread, I posted what I considered a viable solution. Most People chose to ignore that and instead raised the Rhetoric. At least I offered a solution.Have You?Now have I been a part of keeping this issue up? I hope so, as for me, Integrity and Honesty are very important, and this should be an issue that everyone who cares about the future of this hobby should chime in on.Take Care,Joe

Jeroen,Ok, I respect your opinion on how I handled this.But when forming your opinion about it: YOU don't know what has exactly been communicated between me and DSB Design in 7 Emails over 4 days, and can therefore not judge properly whether my decision to go public was the right one or not.But again, this is just another opinion :-)Regards, Rob

People are caught lying so what? It still takes a lot to bring them down. Just an example, I think W. Bush's team is OUTSTANDING. No matter who tried, there's just nobody capable of bringing him down. So he's called a lier so what? He's THE winner and remains the President of the United States. Whoever wants to be the next in line to try, get the resource needed and I wish you the best of luck! DSB lied so what? Anyone wants to punish them? Sue them or boycott them (I know I'll boycott them for sure), that's it. If so many people really feel so strongly about it, why don't we start a "boycott" stread and all sign our names. Show it to DSB and let them know how this is going to hurt their future sale. That'll get them to react, not our words of blame.I'm not promoting injustice. I'm just stating reality although it's discouraging. With justice in mind, people who are in it should know how to work it.

Hi Joe,Let me state (again) that I have NO grudge against Simmarket.Their decision NOT to suspend sales of the product before Lou Betti asked them, is theirs (assuming that they even saw my Trouble Ticket before that time).I had and have NO problem with that.Sales suspension by DSB Design is another thing, since:- DSB Design and Sigma Simulation have the same "legal trader" (Mr. Brice)- My entire Email communication was with DSB Design (see statements by Ms Love and Mr. Brice), NOT Simmarket.So please, lets stop the Simmarket discussionBest regards, Rob

Let's give DSB some time to sort this mess out :)

>But why would a company lie about who runs it. I think you>have to question why you would do business with anyone that>hides that type of information. >That is pretty easy to explain:For the same reason they would give a false company adress: Legal liability. If you can't reach the person nor the company they can't be prosecuted.

I thionk you'd be suprised at how many large comapnies have false names behind them.......

I thionk you'd be suprised at how many large comapnies have false names behind them.......

I thionk you'd be suprised at how many large comapnies have false names behind them.......

Does it tripple my surprise now that you posted it thrice? ;)

>I thionk you'd be suprised at how many large comapnies have>false names behind them.......Cheers:-beerchug