My feeling about Orbx

[Bobsk8 12,565]

 To be fair, you did say that you bailed out and stopped the install. Everytime you install something from ORBX, it's advised to install or even reinstall the latest libraries to avoid problems.

 

Just to clarify, I installed trees. Immediately this other program which installed itself in my User Folder, called FTX Central 2 told me that I needed to install an important  update to the Orbx library ( not sure if that was the exact wording, but that was the message I got). After reading this I let it start to download the update. Keep in mind that this is the first Obrx add on I have purchased, so I am just following their instructions.  Nothing was installing yet, it was just downloading the 2058 files that it needed so that it could install them. I'll say it once more, its was just downloading the files.  When I saw the names of the files had no earthly connection to anything that has to do with trees, I cancelled  the download. I didn't want unknown bgls, aircraft, trucks, wheel barrows, dogs, cats, or anything else that was in this huge download being installed into my P3D. So I flew a flight with just the installed trees, and after about a 1/2 hour P3D locked up and crashed, my first crash since I have been flying P3D and I have gone on flights from New york City to Miami with zero problems. So I go on the Orbx forum site, and someone who seems to be there all the time, tells me that I need to install this update and that will solve the problem. So that is what I did, I opened up FTX central again, and let it download the entire update from scratch, which took a long time. Then I told it to install the update. After it installed the update "successfully it said" , I figured I was good to go, so I started a flight and after 45 minutes, P3D locked up and crashed again. Now I try and go back on the Orbx forum to find out what in heck I can do next, and their forum is down. Now all I want to do is delete this trees and bushes and weeds and get back to square one. That is when I discovered the script to uninstall it in the folder where the Trees were installed. The script ran rather quickly, but I still see files from orbx in my scenery folder, so it looks like it didn't uninstall the files that were in that update. 

 

I am now 1 1/2 hours into a flight and P3D is running smooth as silk.  Tonight I am going to look in my scenery folders and delete anything that has the orbx name attached to it. My question now, is how can I uninstall this FTX Central 2 program, because I don't want that either?  Can I just delete the folder ( which I don't like doing), because there is no uninstall for that program  either. 

[codechris 9]

Can we just clarify. You stated this;

 

Didn't bail out of the install, I bailed out of the download. 

 

But in you're first post you stated;

 

I watched a video the other day on youtube where the creator of the video was bragging about the Orbx trees. I decided since they were cheap I would but the add on and try it. I ran the install program, and when I opened it, it said it needed to updates some files to the Orbx library. Well, that's strange because all I wanted was some trees. So I ran this update which consisted of 2,298 files that took a long time to download. I watched as the file names scrolled by and I see aircraft, trucks, vehicles, airport bgls, buildings, etc. etc. etc.  So I bailed out and stopped the install.

 

So did you bail out of the install? Because if you did, then you should re-run that install and let it finished. Unless that's a typo and you meant download not install?

 

If the issue you have is with Trees, and Trees needs an update to the library, then your choice is to not use trees, or update the library.

[Bobsk8 12,565]

Can we just clarify. You stated this;

 

 

But in you're first post you stated;

 

 

So did you bail out of the install? Because if you did, then you should re-run that install and let it finished. Unless that's a typo and you meant download not install?

 

If the issue you have is with Trees, and Trees needs an update to the library, then your choice is to not use trees, or update the library.

 

 

I never let the download finish when I saw the junk it was downloading that obviously had nothing to do with trees or foliage. You can't run an install program until it is finished downloading, at least any that I have ever seen in 30 years that I have been working with computers. I ran a flight without running the update, and it crashed after around a half an hour. Then I went to the Orbx forum and someone told me I had to run the update and that would fix it, so I went back and started the download of the update  with  the over 2,000 files , that I had previously cancelled, again. When It was finished, I ran the update and it said it was successful. I then flew again, and P3D locked up again. 

 

Anyway, today, I uninstalled the trees, at least most of them I think, using the script that they had in the folder. I loaded up my MJQ400 a few hours ago  and went on a 2 hour flight that went off without a problem, and the FPS stayed right where they used to be before the Trees fiasco, , and no more microstutters and no locking up or crashing of the P3D.  

[Poppet 703]

 

 

- Download and install the ORBX Libraries for P3D V2 (very important to get the right version)

 

Bobsk8, did you follow this step?   its important.  My FTX central would not function at all without updating the Orbtx Libs 

[vc10man 732]

 

 

and their forum is down.....

And someone suggested I asked a question that I'd sought answers for, in here, over there? Says it all.......

[Bobsk8 12,565]

Bobsk8, did you follow this step?   its important.  My FTX central would not function at all without updating the Orbtx Libs 

 

that was the update that I ran, which I mentioned in just about every one of my posts. 

And someone suggested I asked a question that I'd sought answers for, in here, over there? Says it all.......

 

Yeah I kinda browsed around their forums over there. Confusing is an understatement. 

[Poppet 703]

 

 

Poppet, on 09 Jun 2015 - 9:02 PM, said:
Bobsk8, did you follow this step?   its important.  My FTX central would not function at all without updating the Orbtx Libs 
 
that was the update that I ran, which I mentioned in just about every one of my posts. 

Oh ok 

[mikea76 184]

Here is what I did, and I am going explain this because one person is commenting that I must be totally responsible for this add on not working properly.  I clicked on the install with my mouse. I used my right hand to hold the mouse, ( maybe I should have used my left).  ^_^   Then the installer ran and installed the trees. I then installed the update, and the 2058 files that came with it, and flew, and immediately had problems after about a half hour of flying. That's all I did.  Can you figure out where I may have gone wrong? 

 

I saw the names of the different files as they were being downloaded using FTX central. Almost all of them had names that had nothing to do with trees or shrubbery that I could see. 

 

What you did wrong is bailing out in the middle of installing the orbx libraries.  I think that when you bailed out in the middle of the install you screwed something up.

 

Who knows what might have gotten screwed up in a aborted install.

 

Just curious why did you not let it install?  

 

BTW I have ORBX trees and I can fly the PMDG 777 into SFO with ORBX northern cal and trees active after a 10 hour flight and not get a OOM

[Guest]

Can I just delete the folder ( which I don't like doing), because there is no uninstall for that program  either. 

 

I can sympathize with you as Orbx doesn't really provide uninstallers ... all 3rd party should but many don't and I understand why they don't.  I'll get into the issues around uninstalling later in this thread, but for now lets tackle your HD trees issue.

 

To use HD trees you will need Orbx Libraries which will include FTX Central V2 if you have the latest libraries.  You DO want to download and install these in order to get HD Trees ... this is Orbx requirements (not going to debate right or wrong here).

 

Removing Orbx products can be a little tricky and their web site instructions don't actually complete the task fully.  But here is what I do:

 

1.  Delete the ORBX folder under ... i.e. Q:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v2\ORBX

 

2.  Edit the scenery.cfg and remove all references to anything ORBX

 

3.  The tricky part, either restore a earlier Terrain.cfg (if you have a backup) or manually edit out the ORBX entries.

 

a.  I believe Orbx will backup the Terrain.cfg before they change it, however, if you have other 3rd party products changing the Terrain.cfg between when you installed Orbx and now, then life will be more complex.

 

b.  Manual edit of the Terrain.cfg ... if you remove entries in the Terrain.cfg you need to be away of the DefaultTextureCount and the AutogenCount values.  Example: DefaultTextureCount = 383 (zero based index) means you will have entries like:

 

[Texture.0]

...

[Texture.382]

 

for a total count of 383.  On the Autogen side:

 

AutogenCount = 14 (zero based index)

 

[Autogen.0.0.0]

...

[Autogen.3.0.0]

[Autogen.3.1.0]

[Autogen.4.0.0]

...

[Autogen.13.0.0]

 

Note: with Autogen there can be more than 14 entries ... looking at ID value for "count" and not the actual number of entries.

 

So you'll want to remove ALL the ORBX entries, BUT you'll need to know if the count changes and/or if you need to keep them contiguous.  

 

Orbx usually identify their "new" entries with something like:

 

// ORBX FTX-GB FTXG Streetlights - U4L

[Autogen.26.0.0]

guid={F27EEDB3-FBFC-4533-896B-6FADB3C9907D}

AutoObject={62b95173-29a1-4ba9-92a1-06537fd49117} (FTXG_type_yellow-twin)

ObjectSize=90

ExclusionWidth=1

ClipData=No

Offset=0

Density=99

MinAutogenDensity=10

PlaceOnWater=No

RandomHeading=No

Scale=0.7

ScaleRange=0

PlacementRange=0

 

Fortunately Orbx don't seem to have "types" so nothing like [Autogen.29.1.0].  So after removing the Orbx entries you'll need to update your AutoGenCount based on ID not actual count.  The Orbx libraries are required for HD Trees and I believe it's the Orbx libraries that will build the entries in the Terrain.cfg (and why you get so many other entries) ... I must admit I've never installed ONLY Orbx HD Trees and nothing else Orbx.

 

However, the Terrain.cfg can get a little more "involved" especially if Autogen GUID's are changed but I will leave that discussion for another day.

 

Onto the Scenery.cfg ... now that you've removed ORBX dir, you'll need to update your scenery.cfg and remove all ORBX entries ... again I find it easier to do by manually editing the Scenery.cfg and remove all the ORBX references from there 

 

Example:

[Area.174]

Title=FTXAA_ORBXLIBS

Local=ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS

Layer=174

Active=TRUE

Required=FALSE

 

You will now be with non-contiguous entries in the Scenery.cfg, BUT I believe the next time your run P3D and/or bring up the scenery library, it will make the entries contiguous (I think).   If not, you can just manually remove the ORBX entries via the Scenery Library UI.

 

You may NOT be done yet ... Orbx backup the files the tree's replace and they leave the backup folder.  You'll need to manually copy/replace your original backed up files IF you haven't used FTX Central 2 to simply Uncheck Orbx Trees and/or HD Trees.

 

And finally, do a search for "ORBX*.*" and "FTX*.*" from your root P3D folder ... there maybe some effects files and/or other files you might want to remove that are ORBX files.

 

If you go this route, proceed at your own risk, I'm only providing this info to help with the assumption you have a good understanding of how to edit files, work with directories, copy/paste files, and how some of the under-workings of P3D and 3rd party.

 

Now, the issue of uninstallers:

 

1.  How does a 3rd party resolve uninstalling their product when other 3rd party have update Terrain.cfg and/or Scenery.cfg?  A restore of a terrain.cfg that was made before some other 3rd party installed their product can and will cause problems for that other 3rd party product.

 

2.  If an installer backs up files that it "thinks" are the "default files" but are actually some other 3rd party files what are the implications?  The implications is that you will wipe out the original "Default files" because the uninstaller would be restoring already modified files (not the original default files).

 

So as you can see, the uninstaller would need considerable "intelligence" built into it to know how to correctly remove/replace files or do nothing.  Now add a changing platform such as P3D versions and the relocation of some key files such as Terrain.cfg and this is why some end up doing a complete wipe and re-installs to resolve issues.  

 

It can and does get very messy as more and more add-ons are installed and/or uninstalled ... yes, the potential for "unknown" errors is high ... yes, the potential for sudden VAS consumption is lurking ... yes, the potential for CTD increases.

 

It's a fragile environment.  I'm not "defending" the environment, P3D, or 3rd party, just letting you know some of the complexity and why these types of issues come up.  Overall 3rd party integration can be done much better (on both sides of the equation), but it's NOT a easy task and would certainly increase product cost and resource requirements to make this entire process more end user friendly.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

[vc10man 732]

Once again, Rob, like a knight on a steed, you come to the rescue. Well done.

[vgbaron 3,496]

When you bailed out you stopped downloading files that were NEEDED by the trees. The fact that you don't understand why is irrelevant. Not saying you don't have a right, just that it's irrelevant. Secondly. most of ORBX installs can easily be disabled without need for backups - with one or two exceptions, they do not overwrite existing files.

 

You were being cautious, a good trait, but, in this case, YOU screwed up your install of the trees and should not be blaming ORBX.

 

I am not defending them, I have my own beefs with them, just, in this case it really was your own actions.

 

Vic

[Poppet 703]

Fantastic post Rob, great information.

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

Thats one heck of an explanation

[Bobsk8 12,565]

What you did wrong is bailing out in the middle of installing the orbx libraries.  I think that when you bailed out in the middle of the install you screwed something up.

 

Who knows what might have gotten screwed up in a aborted install.

 

Just curious why did you not let it install?  

 

BTW I have ORBX trees and I can fly the PMDG 777 into SFO with ORBX northern cal and trees active after a 10 hour flight and not get a OOM

 

You obviously can't read or understand what your are reading. I outlined exactly what I did so a five year old should be able to get a grip on it. I will say this slowly, so see if you can follow along. I  started  to download the update... I saw as it was beginning   to    download   that there were files   on the update   that I did not   want  on my P3D   because  they had nothing     to    do    with trees.    I  never    down   loaded the    update  the first     time  because I cancelled the download.. I did that by clicking on the button on the download screen that said "CANCEL"  After I clicked on the cancel button, it stopped   downloading the 2058 files that I didn't want on my harddrive because I had no idea what they were ....  Then     someone    at Orbx forum     told me   that I needed   to run   the update and that would fix any problem   I had ......So................

I began     downloading    the update   again.....   When    It  finished    downloading    all  2058    files, I then ran  the update   and    when   it    finished   running    it told    me   that the   update   was successful..  ( are you following me so far?)    

 

Now I started P3D and tried running it again with the supposedly fixed by the update trees,  and it was still screwed up. It stuttered, and after about 1/2 hour of flying and the stuttering getting worse and worse, it crashed!!!!!!!!!

 

Now I uninstalled the "trees from hell"    And now my P3D is back to normal, runs smooth as silk, no stutters, no crashes, good FPS, etc. etc.   .. 

I am not going to talk about this anymore, because it obviously is an exercise in futility. ........ :unsure:

 

I can sympathize with you as Orbx doesn't really provide uninstallers ... all 3rd party should but many don't and I understand why they don't.  I'll get into the issues around uninstalling later in this thread, but for now lets tackle your HD trees issue.

 

To use HD trees you will need Orbx Libraries which will include FTX Central V2 if you have the latest libraries.  You DO want to download and install these in order to get HD Trees ... this is Orbx requirements (not going to debate right or wrong here).

 

Removing Orbx products can be a little tricky and their web site instructions don't actually complete the task fully.  But here is what I do:

 

1.  Delete the ORBX folder under ... i.e. Q:\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v2\ORBX

 

2.  Edit the scenery.cfg and remove all references to anything ORBX

 

3.  The tricky part, either restore a earlier Terrain.cfg (if you have a backup) or manually edit out the ORBX entries.

 

a.  I believe Orbx will backup the Terrain.cfg before they change it, however, if you have other 3rd party products changing the Terrain.cfg between when you installed Orbx and now, then life will be more complex.

 

b.  Manual edit of the Terrain.cfg ... if you remove entries in the Terrain.cfg you need to be away of the DefaultTextureCount and the AutogenCount values.  Example: DefaultTextureCount = 383 (zero based index) means you will have entries like:

 

[Texture.0]

...

[Texture.382]

 

for a total count of 383.  On the Autogen side:

 

AutogenCount = 14 (zero based index)

 

[Autogen.0.0.0]

...

[Autogen.3.0.0]

[Autogen.3.1.0]

[Autogen.4.0.0]

...

[Autogen.13.0.0]

 

Note: with Autogen there can be more than 14 entries ... looking at ID value for "count" and not the actual number of entries.

 

So you'll want to remove ALL the ORBX entries, BUT you'll need to know if the count changes and/or if you need to keep them contiguous.  

 

Orbx usually identify their "new" entries with something like:

 

// ORBX FTX-GB FTXG Streetlights - U4L

[Autogen.26.0.0]

guid={F27EEDB3-FBFC-4533-896B-6FADB3C9907D}

AutoObject={62b95173-29a1-4ba9-92a1-06537fd49117} (FTXG_type_yellow-twin)

ObjectSize=90

ExclusionWidth=1

ClipData=No

Offset=0

Density=99

MinAutogenDensity=10

PlaceOnWater=No

RandomHeading=No

Scale=0.7

ScaleRange=0

PlacementRange=0

 

Fortunately Orbx don't seem to have "types" so nothing like [Autogen.29.1.0].  So after removing the Orbx entries you'll need to update your AutoGenCount based on ID not actual count.  The Orbx libraries are required for HD Trees and I believe it's the Orbx libraries that will build the entries in the Terrain.cfg (and why you get so many other entries) ... I must admit I've never installed ONLY Orbx HD Trees and nothing else Orbx.

 

However, the Terrain.cfg can get a little more "involved" especially if Autogen GUID's are changed but I will leave that discussion for another day.

 

Onto the Scenery.cfg ... now that you've removed ORBX dir, you'll need to update your scenery.cfg and remove all ORBX entries ... again I find it easier to do by manually editing the Scenery.cfg and remove all the ORBX references from there 

 

Example:

[Area.174]

Title=FTXAA_ORBXLIBS

Local=ORBX\FTX_AU\FTXAA_ORBXLIBS

Layer=174

Active=TRUE

Required=FALSE

 

You will now be with non-contiguous entries in the Scenery.cfg, BUT I believe the next time your run P3D and/or bring up the scenery library, it will make the entries contiguous (I think).   If not, you can just manually remove the ORBX entries via the Scenery Library UI.

 

You may NOT be done yet ... Orbx backup the files the tree's replace and they leave the backup folder.  You'll need to manually copy/replace your original backed up files IF you haven't used FTX Central 2 to simply Uncheck Orbx Trees and/or HD Trees.

 

And finally, do a search for "ORBX*.*" and "FTX*.*" from your root P3D folder ... there maybe some effects files and/or other files you might want to remove that are ORBX files.

 

If you go this route, proceed at your own risk, I'm only providing this info to help with the assumption you have a good understanding of how to edit files, work with directories, copy/paste files, and how some of the under-workings of P3D and 3rd party.

 

Now, the issue of uninstallers:

 

1.  How does a 3rd party resolve uninstalling their product when other 3rd party have update Terrain.cfg and/or Scenery.cfg?  A restore of a terrain.cfg that was made before some other 3rd party installed their product can and will cause problems for that other 3rd party product.

 

2.  If an installer backs up files that it "thinks" are the "default files" but are actually some other 3rd party files what are the implications?  The implications is that you will wipe out the original "Default files" because the uninstaller would be restoring already modified files (not the original default files).

 

So as you can see, the uninstaller would need considerable "intelligence" built into it to know how to correctly remove/replace files or do nothing.  Now add a changing platform such as P3D versions and the relocation of some key files such as Terrain.cfg and this is why some end up doing a complete wipe and re-installs to resolve issues.  

 

It can and does get very messy as more and more add-ons are installed and/or uninstalled ... yes, the potential for "unknown" errors is high ... yes, the potential for sudden VAS consumption is lurking ... yes, the potential for CTD increases.

 

It's a fragile environment.  I'm not "defending" the environment, P3D, or 3rd party, just letting you know some of the complexity and why these types of issues come up.  Overall 3rd party integration can be done much better (on both sides of the equation), but it's NOT a easy task and would certainly increase product cost and resource requirements to make this entire process more end user friendly.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

 

 

 

Well thanks for the explanation, and even though I didn't know exactly what this install of the trees did, with all the digital junk I had to download, I figured it was a good deal more destructive than a few files of trees. I can't believe that a company like Orbx would do this to someone's sim program without warning them first. I have been buying Flight sim add on programs for decades, and have never seen anything like this. It's like getting Malware on your simulation program, and paying for it to boot. No way to uninstall unless you spend hours fiddling with different files. I realize that an uninstall would be difficult, but then warn people that are about to purchase the product what the risks are, like the drug companies do when they advertise some new drug and tell you that the side effects may be that you drop dead after taking it. 

 

I should have realized when I read the ridiculous claims of improved FPS from installing  bigger tree files to take the place of the default files, that this was digital snake oil ( something that I bet they will never be able to prove by the way) ..... Oh well, live and learn. 

 

Anyway, thanks for that very in depth, and very knowledgeable explanation, it must have taken quite a bit of your time to write it, and I appreciate  that. 

[codechris 9]

You saw all the files it was downloading? Hmm that is odd. I have to ask, how did you do that exactly? Since it should only download a .zip file, which would only show the .zip downloading. I'm questioning if you downloaded the correct thing since I'm struggerling to know how you would see all the files in the zip before the zip has fully downloaded. Maybe I'm missunderstanding here