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Ecosse_821

How to "activate" a hold that is part of an approach?

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I was flying into KIAG and loaded the ILS Y rwy28R approach into the fms.  There is a hold specified on the chart and the FMS indicated the hold in a blue dash oval on the ND, but I couldn't figure out how to activate it so the AP would actually fly the hold.   I ended up just manually adding the hold myself and it superimposed it over the blue dash oval that was already there.  But I figure there is probably a way to tell the FMS to activate the hold that it is already aware of.

 

Anyone know?   Thanks!

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No, the MAP also has a hold, but this is a (I think) mandatory one minute hold that is part of the approach itself.  The chart is available on Flightaware if you have a minute to look at it.

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I checked the chart but it doesn't state it's a mandatory hold, but I'm not chart expert. What makes you think it's mandatory?

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Anyone know?   Thanks!

 

This is simply a course reversal, which would either be manually flown, or added as appropriate. If you're coming in from EHMAN, this would not be required. Many other charts would specifically note "NoPT" (no procedure turn), but that is a specific prohibition. In this case, you shouldn't, but you can.

 

To me, though, a 737 should be flying the ILS Z approach, as there really isn't a time that you wouldn't have radar coverage (from ATC) to vector you in. Additionally, the IF/IAF is farther out to give you more time to get stable. Again, since you're going to be vectored onto the LOC, you do not need the procedure turn/hold/course reversal.

 

In other words, if the FMC doesn't load it in, don't add it unless instructed.

 

I haven't looked at the charts. But isn't that part of the MAP?

 

Yes, but mostly no, as it's part of the initial procedure as well. This is a carryover from the "old days" of flying. Now, most facilities vector you in, or have some feeder fix (like EHMAN, in this case) to bring you in without a course reversal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_approach#Course_reversal_procedure


No, the MAP also has a hold, but this is a (I think) mandatory one minute hold that is part of the approach itself.  The chart is available on Flightaware if you have a minute to look at it.

 

Nope. See above reference to course reversal.

 

I checked the chart but it doesn't state it's a mandatory hold, but I'm not chart expert. What makes you think it's mandatory?

 

Correct. "NoPT" written on the chart prohibits you from flying the hold. The hold depicted is there if the PIC determines that flying it would be the best course of action for better approach stability. The only thing required about it is that it must be flown on that protected side (right turns), and with a 1 minute inbound leg.

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Thanks for the replies.   Given all that, if I want to fly it just for hoots, do I have to add it manually even though the FMC has it all loaded in and ready to go, or is there a way to simply activate the blue dotted line version of it that has been loaded?
 

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Thanks for the replies.   Given all that, if I want to fly it just for hoots, do I have to add it manually even though the FMC has it all loaded in and ready to go, or is there a way to simply activate the blue dotted line version of it that has been loaded?

 

 

The blue dotted is the missed, so don't go trying to force that unless you're actually going missed.

 

If you want to add it in, use the HOLD page.

 

Since it's just a course reversal, though, you wouldn't fly the whole hold. It would be a little more like this (basically, you fly a teardrop and not the whole thing), and would be hand flown:

Procedure_turns.gif

(the above blue versus yellow is just a technique difference)

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When you load the procedure into the fmc, it does show the MAP in blue dotted line.   But it also shows the course reversal that we have been talking about in dotted blue line, and the legs page accounts for it also, but it isn't activated.   I know how to hand fly it if that's what I wanted to do, and I understand that that's likely how it would be handled in the RW if one were even going to fly it at all.
 

But I'm still wondering if there is a couple of keypresses that would make it active if I wanted the AP to fly it as loaded.  

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So kyle, if your CAT C and wanting to shoot a VOR APCH will ATC vector you to the appropriate point? Or will you need to fly the full procedural course?

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You already answer youre question in your very first post :) you added the hold manually, which only took a few clicks

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When you load the procedure into the fmc, it does show the MAP in blue dotted line.   But it also shows the course reversal that we have been talking about in dotted blue line, and the legs page accounts for it also, but it isn't activated.   I know how to hand fly it if that's what I wanted to do, and I understand that that's likely how it would be handled in the RW if one were even going to fly it at all.

 

But I'm still wondering if there is a couple of keypresses that would make it active if I wanted the AP to fly it as loaded.  

 

Again, the blue is all the missed approach procedure. The hold is both (an optional) part of the initial approach, and part of the missed. If you load the MAP, then you're going to lose your initial approach guidance. Since your focus should be flying the procedure, fly it in order and leave the MAP for if it's needed. There is zero benefit (in fact, there's a negative outcome) from monkeying with the FMC to try to get it to do things it's not quite meant to do. This is why I've said a few times that this section is hand flown if it's actually flown (and in a good number of the places in the world, it would not be, especially here...also because you'd be flying the ILS Z).

 

If you want to add the hold to the FMC guidance, add it in with the HOLD page, as I indicated earlier.

 

So kyle, if your CAT C and wanting to shoot a VOR APCH will ATC vector you to the appropriate point? Or will you need to fly the full procedural course?

 

Depends on the approach. Where possible, vectors are used to increase traffic flow. Assigning the full approach takes more time for the pilot, and adds time to the controller being able to put someone else on that approach. Where vectors are required, you will see RADAR REQUIRED:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1506/05100ILD12.PDF

 

For the record, CAT C has very little to do with the availability of the approach. Granted, if no mins are published at that CAT then you can't fly it, but those instances are few and far between. ATC isn't going to not vector the Cessna, but vector the 73, or vice versa, simply because they're different CATs.

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Would you say the same about a visual apch kyle?

 

Not sure what you mean. A visual means you don't have a procedure to fly (unless it's a charted visual). You'd get vectors to a point where the the controller thinks you'd be able to see the field (usually still on the centerline). CAT definitely doesn't matter in this case, too.

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That answers my question!

 

So if its not a charted visual the controller will bring you to a point you will see the runway?

 

So LPPT has a visual chart with prescribed charts although its TEMPO!?

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Also kyle, take a look at EGPH rwy 24 you have two race tracks. What is the track from TLA VOR used for?

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Also kyle, take a look at EGPH rwy 24 you have two race tracks. What is the track from TLA VOR used for?

 

There's two racetracks - one is the course reversal and the other is the lost comms procedure.

 

The TLA gives you a feeder route to join the ITH DME arc.

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So if its not a charted visual the controller will bring you to a point you will see the runway?

 

The airport in general is all that's required, really, but yes, you will be vectored to a point where you can see it. Nothing precludes a pilot from self-reporting, too. You could be on the HYPER5 flying what is essentially a downwind leg into IAD and call the field. If it's not busy, the controller might just clear you for a visual approach to one of the runways on the spot (not likely at IAD since it's usually pretty busy, but it's possible).

 

Controllers usually vector you onto the final approach course to minimize variations in how you fly to get to that point, however.

 

 

 

With charted visuals, the airport isn't the reference point. Instead one of the points listed on the chart becomes the reference point. As an example, flying the Riv Vis to Runway 19 at DCA, you could call any of the following out: the river (what they'll prompt you for), the Taylor complex, the American Legion Bridge, the reservoirs, or any of the other bridges (though it would be difficult, because they're going to be vectoring you out toward the American Legion. From there, the only difference from flying an instrument procedure is that you're going to be bouncing between the outside picture and the chart, instead of the instruments and the chart (though, in the case of the Riv Vis, you could use the fixes page to set up the recommended altitude references).

 

For charted visuals, calling the field in sight will usually get your call rejected and referenced to the chart. Most of the reason charted visuals exist is because a standard visual approach won't work for some reason (noise abatement, airspace, etc.).

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In my experience, I am always vectored to a final course intercept unless I specifically ask "fly the approach as published," adding the IAF as required.  This is how students under the hood get to fly the holding or procedure turns while the instructor ensures compliance with visual rules.  Most often when I'm going into a small airport with RNAV(GPS) approaches, I'll request clearance direct to an IAF fix then the approach as published.  The clearance is assured unless there's traffic and the controller wants to keep me on vectors.

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under the hood get to fly the holding or procedure turns while the instructor ensures compliance with visual rules.

 

Doing this later today just for sng up to KRVL. All /A work just for the extra challenge since I've been flying G1000s a bunch lately...getting lazy...

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There's two racetracks - one is the course reversal and the other is the lost comms procedure.

 

The TLA gives you a feeder route to join the ITH DME arc.

 

I had a look in the FMS database and only could find for RWY 24 is the TLA transition? Is this totally different from the lost comms procedure?

 

Also that procedure from the DB you have the first waypoint which is TLA-13 and it has a disco, so i try to close it up by selecting TLA-13 and put it to the top but i keep getting invalid entry?

The airport in general is all that's required, really, but yes, you will be vectored to a point where you can see it. Nothing precludes a pilot from self-reporting, too. You could be on the HYPER5 flying what is essentially a downwind leg into IAD and call the field. If it's not busy, the controller might just clear you for a visual approach to one of the runways on the spot (not likely at IAD since it's usually pretty busy, but it's possible).

 

Controllers usually vector you onto the final approach course to minimize variations in how you fly to get to that point, however.

 

 

 

With charted visuals, the airport isn't the reference point. Instead one of the points listed on the chart becomes the reference point. As an example, flying the Riv Vis to Runway 19 at DCA, you could call any of the following out: the river (what they'll prompt you for), the Taylor complex, the American Legion Bridge, the reservoirs, or any of the other bridges (though it would be difficult, because they're going to be vectoring you out toward the American Legion. From there, the only difference from flying an instrument procedure is that you're going to be bouncing between the outside picture and the chart, instead of the instruments and the chart (though, in the case of the Riv Vis, you could use the fixes page to set up the recommended altitude references).

 

For charted visuals, calling the field in sight will usually get your call rejected and referenced to the chart. Most of the reason charted visuals exist is because a standard visual approach won't work for some reason (noise abatement, airspace, etc.).

 

 

Maybe next time on vatsim i could request a visual but at what point should i ask?

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I had a look in the FMS database and only could find for RWY 24 is the TLA transition? Is this totally different from the lost comms procedure?

 

Honestly, you're probably going to need to study instrument flight a lot more before all of this stuff makes sense.

 

The Jepp chart referring to lost comms (which Matt pointed out) is directly in line with our discussion here: certain things are only done in rare cases, because you're usually going to be on vectors. Note that the chart specifies that you are to "climb straight ahead to 3000 and then as directed." As directed, of course, refers to vectors, or other further instructions. The only time you would fly the lost comms missed approach is if you lost comms with the controller (this would appear as the standard missed approach procedure - we don't separate the two in the States as it's implied). You're not going to load this procedure from the DB anywhere. It's not a separate transition.

 

 

 


Also that procedure from the DB you have the first waypoint which is TLA-13 and it has a disco, so i try to close it up by selecting TLA-13 and put it to the top but i keep getting invalid entry?

 

Not sure what you're trying to do here. As I've always said here, discos are sometimes okay. Don't close them unless you know they should be closed. There are no air routes that will put you at that fix (if there were, the name would likely be something logical and not a DME reference), so you're going to get vectored between the end of your route, and that point. If you weren't going to use vectors (implied lost comms), you'd proceed direct EDN, fly the course reversal, and fly back in.

 

Before you go chasing more technicalities and in depth stuff here, I think you might be better served by looking more into how IFR is structured, and how the whole system is predicated on the assumption that communication between you and ATC might fail (ever wonder why you get EFC times? yep...).

 

 

 


Maybe next time on vatsim i could request a visual but at what point should i ask?

 

Usually the first person you speak to in the TRACON is the one who assigns it (in the United States at least). Since a lot of VATSIM groups just assign the ILS because pilots are so dependent on it, I end up asking for the visual at a lot of places as soon as they tell me what to expect (provided the weather is good enough).

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Honestly, you're probably going to need to study instrument flight a lot more before all of this stuff makes sense.

 

Yes its not enough! I'll keep at it.

 

 

Usually the first person you speak to in the TRACON is the one who assigns it (in the United States at least). Since a lot of VATSIM groups just assign the ILS because pilots are so dependent on it, I end up asking for the visual at a lot of places as soon as they tell me what to expect (provided the weather is good enough).

 

One of my flights with Vatsim i asked the controller for a low drag ILS apch, which was approved! But not sure if asking that was nescessary? It was my first.

(ever wonder why you get EFC times? yep...).

 

Yep, to continue on after that time if you can't reach the controller!

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One of my flights with Vatsim i asked the controller for a low drag ILS apch, which was approved! But not sure if asking that was nescessary? It was my first.

 

A controller expects that you're going to fly the "normal" profile for the plane, which is empirical. As a controller observes traffic over his or her career, they get an idea of how each plane performs and what they can ask a pilot to do, and what they can't.

 

As an example, take a plane a controller hardly ever sees on the average day, and watch how they treat it. It likely won't be very aggressive, like the rest of the aircraft. They're not used to it, so they're not sure how it's going to fit into the usual flow.

 

Regarding the low drag approach, you should only fly what you're assigned. If you wish to deviate from the assigned, then you should request it. In other words, if you were assigned the ILS and then you decided to fly the low drag ILS without requesting, the spacing the controller set up might get messed up. You did the right thing by requesting so that the controller knew what you were going to be doing.

 

On a related traffic management note, when my wheels are on the runway, it's my runway. While I'm not going to make an effort to be intentionally disruptive to other aircraft, I'm not going to rush off the runway if it could create a hazard. In the same vein, if I'm landing on 1C at IAD to go to Signature (at the far end), I'll request a long rollout. As I just mentioned, I can take all the time I need for the long rollout per the regs, but it could throw the controller's spacing off since he or she is probably expecting I'll jump off on one of the high speed exits. Requesting it lets the controller know that I want to land long to save a little time over the longer taxi. If he or she rejects it, then I'll just exit on a high speed if it's possible to do so, in the interest of not disrupting the traffic flow.

 

 

 


Yep, to continue on after that time if you can't reach the controller!

 

Exactly, but in most cases, you're going to get out of the hold prior to that. Just like the chart: the info is there, but in most cases you're not going to need it. Sure, pay attention to it, but it's not a required part, and it's not something you're going to find in the FMC (apart from the missed that auto loads "behind" the main part of the IAP anyway).

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A controller expects that you're going to fly the "normal" profile for the plane, which is empirical. As a controller observes traffic over his or her career, they get an idea of how each plane performs and what they can ask a pilot to do, and what they can't.

 

As an example, take a plane a controller hardly ever sees on the average day, and watch how they treat it. It likely won't be very aggressive, like the rest of the aircraft. They're not used to it, so they're not sure how it's going to fit into the usual flow.

 

Regarding the low drag approach, you should only fly what you're assigned. If you wish to deviate from the assigned, then you should request it. In other words, if you were assigned the ILS and then you decided to fly the low drag ILS without requesting, the spacing the controller set up might get messed up. You did the right thing by requesting so that the controller knew what you were going to be doing.

 

 

It was fairly quiet at Edinburgh so thats why i requested this. I did see a RW 737 NG landing at EGCC doing a low drag ILS apch. And that airport is quite busy.

 

 

On a related traffic management note, when my wheels are on the runway, it's my runway. While I'm not going to make an effort to be intentionally disruptive to other aircraft, I'm not going to rush off the runway if it could create a hazard. In the same vein, if I'm landing on 1C at IAD to go to Signature (at the far end), I'll request a long rollout. As I just mentioned, I can take all the time I need for the long rollout per the regs, but it could throw the controller's spacing off since he or she is probably expecting I'll jump off on one of the high speed exits. Requesting it lets the controller know that I want to land long to save a little time over the longer taxi. If he or she rejects it, then I'll just exit on a high speed if it's possible to do so, in the interest of not disrupting the traffic flow.

 

I can think of a place EGKK, both on the TO roll and landing.

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One of my flights with Vatsim i asked the controller for a low drag ILS apch, which was approved! But not sure if asking that was nescessary? It was my first.

 

I'm going to disagree slightly with Kyle here and say that there's no need to tell the controller how you're going to fly the aircraft in this respect: it's up to the pilot. There's no difference in terms of the actual ILS profile that you'll be flying, it's more to do with delayed flap and gear selection: something the controller has no interest in. They'll assign you speeds and altitudes: as long as you fly those speeds and altitudes, the controller couldn't care less about how you've got the aircraft configured.

 

If the controller wants a specific rate of descent or a specific speed, then it's up to them to ask for it: otherwise I'll fly the most efficient profile that I can whilst complying with ATC instructions (and company SOPs, stabilised approach criteria etc). 

 

 

 

Maybe next time on vatsim i could request a visual but at what point should i ask?

 

Usually once you have the airfield in sight. You're unlikely to get one at LHR/LGW etc but you're much more likely to get one downroute at a quieter airfield (not in Italy though! -- and, Kyle, are you chaps over in the US giving foreign carriers visuals again yet?)

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