How to "activate" a hold that is part of an approach?

[Ecosse_821 24]

I was flying into KIAG and loaded the ILS Y rwy28R approach into the fms.  There is a hold specified on the chart and the FMS indicated the hold in a blue dash oval on the ND, but I couldn't figure out how to activate it so the AP would actually fly the hold.   I ended up just manually adding the hold myself and it superimposed it over the blue dash oval that was already there.  But I figure there is probably a way to tell the FMS to activate the hold that it is already aware of.

 

Anyone know?   Thanks!

[Driver170 42]

I haven't looked at the charts. But isn't that part of the MAP?

[Ecosse_821 24]

No, the MAP also has a hold, but this is a (I think) mandatory one minute hold that is part of the approach itself.  The chart is available on Flightaware if you have a minute to look at it.

[codechris 9]

I checked the chart but it doesn't state it's a mandatory hold, but I'm not chart expert. What makes you think it's mandatory?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Anyone know?   Thanks!

 

This is simply a course reversal, which would either be manually flown, or added as appropriate. If you're coming in from EHMAN, this would not be required. Many other charts would specifically note "NoPT" (no procedure turn), but that is a specific prohibition. In this case, you shouldn't, but you can.

 

To me, though, a 737 should be flying the ILS Z approach, as there really isn't a time that you wouldn't have radar coverage (from ATC) to vector you in. Additionally, the IF/IAF is farther out to give you more time to get stable. Again, since you're going to be vectored onto the LOC, you do not need the procedure turn/hold/course reversal.

 

In other words, if the FMC doesn't load it in, don't add it unless instructed.

 

I haven't looked at the charts. But isn't that part of the MAP?

 

Yes, but mostly no, as it's part of the initial procedure as well. This is a carryover from the "old days" of flying. Now, most facilities vector you in, or have some feeder fix (like EHMAN, in this case) to bring you in without a course reversal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_approach#Course_reversal_procedure

No, the MAP also has a hold, but this is a (I think) mandatory one minute hold that is part of the approach itself.  The chart is available on Flightaware if you have a minute to look at it.

 

Nope. See above reference to course reversal.

 

I checked the chart but it doesn't state it's a mandatory hold, but I'm not chart expert. What makes you think it's mandatory?

 

Correct. "NoPT" written on the chart prohibits you from flying the hold. The hold depicted is there if the PIC determines that flying it would be the best course of action for better approach stability. The only thing required about it is that it must be flown on that protected side (right turns), and with a 1 minute inbound leg.

[Ecosse_821 24]

Thanks for the replies.   Given all that, if I want to fly it just for hoots, do I have to add it manually even though the FMC has it all loaded in and ready to go, or is there a way to simply activate the blue dotted line version of it that has been loaded?
 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Thanks for the replies.   Given all that, if I want to fly it just for hoots, do I have to add it manually even though the FMC has it all loaded in and ready to go, or is there a way to simply activate the blue dotted line version of it that has been loaded?

 

 

The blue dotted is the missed, so don't go trying to force that unless you're actually going missed.

 

If you want to add it in, use the HOLD page.

 

Since it's just a course reversal, though, you wouldn't fly the whole hold. It would be a little more like this (basically, you fly a teardrop and not the whole thing), and would be hand flown:

(the above blue versus yellow is just a technique difference)

[Ecosse_821 24]

When you load the procedure into the fmc, it does show the MAP in blue dotted line.   But it also shows the course reversal that we have been talking about in dotted blue line, and the legs page accounts for it also, but it isn't activated.   I know how to hand fly it if that's what I wanted to do, and I understand that that's likely how it would be handled in the RW if one were even going to fly it at all.
 

But I'm still wondering if there is a couple of keypresses that would make it active if I wanted the AP to fly it as loaded.  

[Driver170 42]

So kyle, if your CAT C and wanting to shoot a VOR APCH will ATC vector you to the appropriate point? Or will you need to fly the full procedural course?

[codechris 9]

You already answer youre question in your very first post you added the hold manually, which only took a few clicks

[scandinavian13 5,192]

When you load the procedure into the fmc, it does show the MAP in blue dotted line.   But it also shows the course reversal that we have been talking about in dotted blue line, and the legs page accounts for it also, but it isn't activated.   I know how to hand fly it if that's what I wanted to do, and I understand that that's likely how it would be handled in the RW if one were even going to fly it at all.

 

But I'm still wondering if there is a couple of keypresses that would make it active if I wanted the AP to fly it as loaded.  

 

Again, the blue is all the missed approach procedure. The hold is both (an optional) part of the initial approach, and part of the missed. If you load the MAP, then you're going to lose your initial approach guidance. Since your focus should be flying the procedure, fly it in order and leave the MAP for if it's needed. There is zero benefit (in fact, there's a negative outcome) from monkeying with the FMC to try to get it to do things it's not quite meant to do. This is why I've said a few times that this section is hand flown if it's actually flown (and in a good number of the places in the world, it would not be, especially here...also because you'd be flying the ILS Z).

 

If you want to add the hold to the FMC guidance, add it in with the HOLD page, as I indicated earlier.

 

So kyle, if your CAT C and wanting to shoot a VOR APCH will ATC vector you to the appropriate point? Or will you need to fly the full procedural course?

 

Depends on the approach. Where possible, vectors are used to increase traffic flow. Assigning the full approach takes more time for the pilot, and adds time to the controller being able to put someone else on that approach. Where vectors are required, you will see RADAR REQUIRED:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1506/05100ILD12.PDF

 

For the record, CAT C has very little to do with the availability of the approach. Granted, if no mins are published at that CAT then you can't fly it, but those instances are few and far between. ATC isn't going to not vector the Cessna, but vector the 73, or vice versa, simply because they're different CATs.

[Driver170 42]

Would you say the same about a visual apch kyle?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Would you say the same about a visual apch kyle?

 

Not sure what you mean. A visual means you don't have a procedure to fly (unless it's a charted visual). You'd get vectors to a point where the the controller thinks you'd be able to see the field (usually still on the centerline). CAT definitely doesn't matter in this case, too.

[Driver170 42]

That answers my question!

 

So if its not a charted visual the controller will bring you to a point you will see the runway?

 

So LPPT has a visual chart with prescribed charts although its TEMPO!?

[Driver170 42]

Also kyle, take a look at EGPH rwy 24 you have two race tracks. What is the track from TLA VOR used for?