How to "activate" a hold that is part of an approach?

[Spin737 102]

Also kyle, take a look at EGPH rwy 24 you have two race tracks. What is the track from TLA VOR used for?

 

There's two racetracks - one is the course reversal and the other is the lost comms procedure.

 

The TLA gives you a feeder route to join the ITH DME arc.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

So if its not a charted visual the controller will bring you to a point you will see the runway?

 

The airport in general is all that's required, really, but yes, you will be vectored to a point where you can see it. Nothing precludes a pilot from self-reporting, too. You could be on the HYPER5 flying what is essentially a downwind leg into IAD and call the field. If it's not busy, the controller might just clear you for a visual approach to one of the runways on the spot (not likely at IAD since it's usually pretty busy, but it's possible).

 

Controllers usually vector you onto the final approach course to minimize variations in how you fly to get to that point, however.

 

 

 

With charted visuals, the airport isn't the reference point. Instead one of the points listed on the chart becomes the reference point. As an example, flying the Riv Vis to Runway 19 at DCA, you could call any of the following out: the river (what they'll prompt you for), the Taylor complex, the American Legion Bridge, the reservoirs, or any of the other bridges (though it would be difficult, because they're going to be vectoring you out toward the American Legion. From there, the only difference from flying an instrument procedure is that you're going to be bouncing between the outside picture and the chart, instead of the instruments and the chart (though, in the case of the Riv Vis, you could use the fixes page to set up the recommended altitude references).

 

For charted visuals, calling the field in sight will usually get your call rejected and referenced to the chart. Most of the reason charted visuals exist is because a standard visual approach won't work for some reason (noise abatement, airspace, etc.).

[downscc 1,327]

In my experience, I am always vectored to a final course intercept unless I specifically ask "fly the approach as published," adding the IAF as required.  This is how students under the hood get to fly the holding or procedure turns while the instructor ensures compliance with visual rules.  Most often when I'm going into a small airport with RNAV(GPS) approaches, I'll request clearance direct to an IAF fix then the approach as published.  The clearance is assured unless there's traffic and the controller wants to keep me on vectors.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

under the hood get to fly the holding or procedure turns while the instructor ensures compliance with visual rules.

 

Doing this later today just for sng up to KRVL. All /A work just for the extra challenge since I've been flying G1000s a bunch lately...getting lazy...

[Driver170 42]

There's two racetracks - one is the course reversal and the other is the lost comms procedure.

 

The TLA gives you a feeder route to join the ITH DME arc.

 

I had a look in the FMS database and only could find for RWY 24 is the TLA transition? Is this totally different from the lost comms procedure?

 

Also that procedure from the DB you have the first waypoint which is TLA-13 and it has a disco, so i try to close it up by selecting TLA-13 and put it to the top but i keep getting invalid entry?

The airport in general is all that's required, really, but yes, you will be vectored to a point where you can see it. Nothing precludes a pilot from self-reporting, too. You could be on the HYPER5 flying what is essentially a downwind leg into IAD and call the field. If it's not busy, the controller might just clear you for a visual approach to one of the runways on the spot (not likely at IAD since it's usually pretty busy, but it's possible).

 

Controllers usually vector you onto the final approach course to minimize variations in how you fly to get to that point, however.

 

 

 

With charted visuals, the airport isn't the reference point. Instead one of the points listed on the chart becomes the reference point. As an example, flying the Riv Vis to Runway 19 at DCA, you could call any of the following out: the river (what they'll prompt you for), the Taylor complex, the American Legion Bridge, the reservoirs, or any of the other bridges (though it would be difficult, because they're going to be vectoring you out toward the American Legion. From there, the only difference from flying an instrument procedure is that you're going to be bouncing between the outside picture and the chart, instead of the instruments and the chart (though, in the case of the Riv Vis, you could use the fixes page to set up the recommended altitude references).

 

For charted visuals, calling the field in sight will usually get your call rejected and referenced to the chart. Most of the reason charted visuals exist is because a standard visual approach won't work for some reason (noise abatement, airspace, etc.).

 

 

Maybe next time on vatsim i could request a visual but at what point should i ask?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

I had a look in the FMS database and only could find for RWY 24 is the TLA transition? Is this totally different from the lost comms procedure?

 

Honestly, you're probably going to need to study instrument flight a lot more before all of this stuff makes sense.

 

The Jepp chart referring to lost comms (which Matt pointed out) is directly in line with our discussion here: certain things are only done in rare cases, because you're usually going to be on vectors. Note that the chart specifies that you are to "climb straight ahead to 3000 and then as directed." As directed, of course, refers to vectors, or other further instructions. The only time you would fly the lost comms missed approach is if you lost comms with the controller (this would appear as the standard missed approach procedure - we don't separate the two in the States as it's implied). You're not going to load this procedure from the DB anywhere. It's not a separate transition.

 

 

 

Also that procedure from the DB you have the first waypoint which is TLA-13 and it has a disco, so i try to close it up by selecting TLA-13 and put it to the top but i keep getting invalid entry?

 

Not sure what you're trying to do here. As I've always said here, discos are sometimes okay. Don't close them unless you know they should be closed. There are no air routes that will put you at that fix (if there were, the name would likely be something logical and not a DME reference), so you're going to get vectored between the end of your route, and that point. If you weren't going to use vectors (implied lost comms), you'd proceed direct EDN, fly the course reversal, and fly back in.

 

Before you go chasing more technicalities and in depth stuff here, I think you might be better served by looking more into how IFR is structured, and how the whole system is predicated on the assumption that communication between you and ATC might fail (ever wonder why you get EFC times? yep...).

 

 

 

Maybe next time on vatsim i could request a visual but at what point should i ask?

 

Usually the first person you speak to in the TRACON is the one who assigns it (in the United States at least). Since a lot of VATSIM groups just assign the ILS because pilots are so dependent on it, I end up asking for the visual at a lot of places as soon as they tell me what to expect (provided the weather is good enough).

[Driver170 42]

Honestly, you're probably going to need to study instrument flight a lot more before all of this stuff makes sense.

 

Yes its not enough! I'll keep at it.

 

 

Usually the first person you speak to in the TRACON is the one who assigns it (in the United States at least). Since a lot of VATSIM groups just assign the ILS because pilots are so dependent on it, I end up asking for the visual at a lot of places as soon as they tell me what to expect (provided the weather is good enough).

 

One of my flights with Vatsim i asked the controller for a low drag ILS apch, which was approved! But not sure if asking that was nescessary? It was my first.

(ever wonder why you get EFC times? yep...).

 

Yep, to continue on after that time if you can't reach the controller!

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

One of my flights with Vatsim i asked the controller for a low drag ILS apch, which was approved! But not sure if asking that was nescessary? It was my first.

 

A controller expects that you're going to fly the "normal" profile for the plane, which is empirical. As a controller observes traffic over his or her career, they get an idea of how each plane performs and what they can ask a pilot to do, and what they can't.

 

As an example, take a plane a controller hardly ever sees on the average day, and watch how they treat it. It likely won't be very aggressive, like the rest of the aircraft. They're not used to it, so they're not sure how it's going to fit into the usual flow.

 

Regarding the low drag approach, you should only fly what you're assigned. If you wish to deviate from the assigned, then you should request it. In other words, if you were assigned the ILS and then you decided to fly the low drag ILS without requesting, the spacing the controller set up might get messed up. You did the right thing by requesting so that the controller knew what you were going to be doing.

 

On a related traffic management note, when my wheels are on the runway, it's my runway. While I'm not going to make an effort to be intentionally disruptive to other aircraft, I'm not going to rush off the runway if it could create a hazard. In the same vein, if I'm landing on 1C at IAD to go to Signature (at the far end), I'll request a long rollout. As I just mentioned, I can take all the time I need for the long rollout per the regs, but it could throw the controller's spacing off since he or she is probably expecting I'll jump off on one of the high speed exits. Requesting it lets the controller know that I want to land long to save a little time over the longer taxi. If he or she rejects it, then I'll just exit on a high speed if it's possible to do so, in the interest of not disrupting the traffic flow.

 

 

 

Yep, to continue on after that time if you can't reach the controller!

 

Exactly, but in most cases, you're going to get out of the hold prior to that. Just like the chart: the info is there, but in most cases you're not going to need it. Sure, pay attention to it, but it's not a required part, and it's not something you're going to find in the FMC (apart from the missed that auto loads "behind" the main part of the IAP anyway).

[Driver170 42]

A controller expects that you're going to fly the "normal" profile for the plane, which is empirical. As a controller observes traffic over his or her career, they get an idea of how each plane performs and what they can ask a pilot to do, and what they can't.

 

As an example, take a plane a controller hardly ever sees on the average day, and watch how they treat it. It likely won't be very aggressive, like the rest of the aircraft. They're not used to it, so they're not sure how it's going to fit into the usual flow.

 

Regarding the low drag approach, you should only fly what you're assigned. If you wish to deviate from the assigned, then you should request it. In other words, if you were assigned the ILS and then you decided to fly the low drag ILS without requesting, the spacing the controller set up might get messed up. You did the right thing by requesting so that the controller knew what you were going to be doing.

 

 

It was fairly quiet at Edinburgh so thats why i requested this. I did see a RW 737 NG landing at EGCC doing a low drag ILS apch. And that airport is quite busy.

 

 

On a related traffic management note, when my wheels are on the runway, it's my runway. While I'm not going to make an effort to be intentionally disruptive to other aircraft, I'm not going to rush off the runway if it could create a hazard. In the same vein, if I'm landing on 1C at IAD to go to Signature (at the far end), I'll request a long rollout. As I just mentioned, I can take all the time I need for the long rollout per the regs, but it could throw the controller's spacing off since he or she is probably expecting I'll jump off on one of the high speed exits. Requesting it lets the controller know that I want to land long to save a little time over the longer taxi. If he or she rejects it, then I'll just exit on a high speed if it's possible to do so, in the interest of not disrupting the traffic flow.

 

I can think of a place EGKK, both on the TO roll and landing.

[skelsey 765]

One of my flights with Vatsim i asked the controller for a low drag ILS apch, which was approved! But not sure if asking that was nescessary? It was my first.

 

I'm going to disagree slightly with Kyle here and say that there's no need to tell the controller how you're going to fly the aircraft in this respect: it's up to the pilot. There's no difference in terms of the actual ILS profile that you'll be flying, it's more to do with delayed flap and gear selection: something the controller has no interest in. They'll assign you speeds and altitudes: as long as you fly those speeds and altitudes, the controller couldn't care less about how you've got the aircraft configured.

 

If the controller wants a specific rate of descent or a specific speed, then it's up to them to ask for it: otherwise I'll fly the most efficient profile that I can whilst complying with ATC instructions (and company SOPs, stabilised approach criteria etc). 

 

 

 

Maybe next time on vatsim i could request a visual but at what point should i ask?

 

Usually once you have the airfield in sight. You're unlikely to get one at LHR/LGW etc but you're much more likely to get one downroute at a quieter airfield (not in Italy though! -- and, Kyle, are you chaps over in the US giving foreign carriers visuals again yet?)

[scandinavian13 5,192]

There's no difference in terms of the actual ILS profile that you'll be flying, it's more to do with delayed flap and gear selection: something the controller has no interest in.

 

...except that the speed that will result from this will be different from everyone else who's not flying the low drag approach, so yes, they actually do care quite a bit.

 

 

 

They'll assign you speeds and altitudes: as long as you fly those speeds and altitudes, the controller couldn't care less about how you've got the aircraft configured.

 

We don't do this too much over here. An approach clearance voids prior speed assignments unless restated, and even so, we don't do it a ton unless it's a busy field (and even then, "X speed until X point," which would, of course, be affected by the difference in config prior to or after the restricted segment).

 

 

 

If the controller wants a specific rate of descent or a specific speed, then it's up to them to ask for it: otherwise I'll fly the most efficient profile that I can whilst complying with ATC instructions (and company SOPs, stabilised approach criteria etc). 

 

Yes and no. If you've behaving as per the "norm" then you're fine. If you're not, then that's where you can cause issues. Sure, you can do whatever you want within the regs themselves, technically, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least give the controller an idea that you're doing something non-standard.

 

 

 

No need to bust out the "I'm the PIC" card if you don't need to. Yes, you can absolutely fly a different profile for the same approach if you want, per the regs, but why cause everyone else a headache? Request it from the controller, and if it'll fit the traffic picture, he or she will say "sure." If not, fall in line and deal with the reality that you're flying in during a busy time and those times require things to be a little more standard.

[skelsey 765]

...except that the speed that will result from this will be different from everyone else who's not flying the low drag approach, so yes, they actually do care quite a bit.

 

If you need a specific speed, assign it and I'll fly it. If you don't, you're specifically leaving speed control up to the pilot.

 

 

 

Yes and no. If you've behaving as per the "norm" then you're fine. If you're not, then that's where you can cause issues. Sure, you can do whatever you want within the regs themselves, technically, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least give the controller an idea that you're doing something non-standard.

 

 

 

No need to bust out the "I'm the PIC" card if you don't need to. Yes, you can absolutely fly a different profile for the same approach if you want, per the regs, but why cause everyone else a headache? Request it from the controller, and if it'll fit the traffic picture, he or she will say "sure." If not, fall in line and deal with the reality that you're flying in during a busy time and those times require things to be a little more standard.

 

What's non-standard about flying a CDA? I'm not talking about busting any charted restrictions or restrictions imposed by the controller. If you want me level at XYZ, that's fine. If you want me to fly 220kts or more, or 160kts to 4DME or 180 to the outer marker, that's fine too -- just tell me. But I'm not psychic -- if all you do is tell me to descend to 8000ft, that's what I'll do -- ordinarily that will involve an idle descent, but I'll also be taking my distance to run in to account in order to manage my energy appropriately, and if I'm a long way out then I'm not going to go blasting down to 8000 just to sit and drag my backside in for the next 30NM. If you need a specific speed, tell me. If you need a good rate, tell me. If you don't, I can't possibly be expected to know what you want, or what the guy in front of or behind me is doing. What is "the norm" for one operator, pilot or controller may not be "the norm" for another.

[captain_adf 16]

While we're on the topic of speed restrictions on final, what should you do if tower asks you to keep your speed up to, say, 160, but your flaps 30 speed is 130. Dial 160 and go to MCP SPD, but when can you start to decel? Do they expect you to land at Vref+30???

[skelsey 765]

While we're on the topic of speed restrictions on final, what should you do if tower asks you to keep your speed up to, say, 160, but your flaps 30 speed is 130. Dial 160 and go to MCP SPD, but when can you start to decel? Do they expect you to land at Vref+30???

No -- no speed restriction may be imposed inside 4DME (UK) or the outer marker (US), and similar rules apply elsewhere, so you'll never get an open-ended speed restriction on final -- it will be something like "Bigjet 123, maintain 160 kts to 4DME" or "Bigjet 123, maintain 180kts to the outer marker, cleared ILS approach..." etc.

 

So you fly whatever configuration is appropriate for the speed (normally some intermediate flap setting) and when you get to D4/the OM/wherever you can then reduce the speed and configure for landing.

 

Can sometimes be a bit sporty trying to make stabilised approach criteria at 1000R with a slippery jet and a bit of a tailwind! (It's usually considered acceptable to start dialing the speed back around D4.5 so that the TL's close and the speed trend at least starts heading in the right direction by the time you reach D4).

[scandinavian13 5,192]

If you need a specific speed, assign it and I'll fly it. If you don't, you're specifically leaving speed control up to the pilot.

 

Agreed, but that's clearly not the angle I'm getting at here. If you've read anything into my last few posts, it's not about flying by the book, flying by the regs, or flying to the letter of the instruction - it's flying courteously.

 

It's no secret in the industry that, if you want to do something non-standard, you should at the very least make it known. Granted, I've been using request and advise somewhat interchangeably here, but the fact remains: if you're flying into a busy field and want to do something non standard, request/advise it so that the controller has time to plan ahead.

 

Think of it this way:

• You start your shift letting every aircraft do its thing because it's not quite busy yet.
• Things start to get busy, but you've been handling DAL MD80s, JBU 320s and AAL 737s without giving them extra information, though you're spacing them a little more tightly than before. You're simply controlling based on your instinct of performance and regular behavior of how the pilots will perform in each aircraft, at each airline.
• All of the sudden, some self-important guy, flying for any of those three airlines then comes in, notices he hasn't been assigned anything specific in terms of speed or procedures and proceeds to be fully configured at the IAF. Why? Because he wants to and the controller should've specified his speed. Right?

Wrong. Sure, there's nothing in the regs preventing it, but this guy has effectively hosed every single flight behind him, minus one or two the (very perturbed) controller can slip in front of him if he's lucky. How is this different from the low drag approach example? The low drag, of course, doesn't screw up the trailing flow as much, but it could certainly cause compressibility issues on the final approach course. If this guy gets too close, the controller (or the tower controller) will have to send him around. Not only do we then have an unutilized landing slot, we now have to "create" a slot between two aircraft and needlessly delay a few aircraft behind the slot, while operating on a narrower margin that could result in another go around. Why? All because some guy wanted to do something non-standard, and pulled the "I'm the PIC" card.

 

When you're at a non-towered field, the wind is blowing 350 at 5. The AWOS states that the calm wind runway is Runway 17 and a few people in the pattern are using 17 in accordance with that. Do the regs prevent you from taking off of Runway 35? No. Might you have a good reason for wanting to depart 35? Sure. I think we can all agree, though, that if at all possible, you should depart Runway 17 to fit in with the traffic flow. If you're unable to do so, then you should time and announce it well enough in advance, so that the other pilots know and can adjust if necessary.

 

 

 

What's non-standard about flying a CDA? I'm not talking about busting any charted restrictions or restrictions imposed by the controller. If you want me level at XYZ, that's fine. If you want me to fly 220kts or more, or 160kts to 4DME or 180 to the outer marker, that's fine too -- just tell me. But I'm not psychic -- if all you do is tell me to descend to 8000ft, that's what I'll do -- ordinarily that will involve an idle descent, but I'll also be taking my distance to run in to account in order to manage my energy appropriately, and if I'm a long way out then I'm not going to go blasting down to 8000 just to sit and drag my backside in for the next 30NM. If you need a specific speed, tell me. If you need a good rate, tell me. If you don't, I can't possibly be expected to know what you want, or what the guy in front of or behind me is doing. What is "the norm" for one operator, pilot or controller may not be "the norm" for another.

 

Simon, you're completely side-stepping the point here, and actually somewhat lending a hand to mine:

You're correct about the norm for one pilot or operator not being the norm for another, which is why - for this entire time - I've mentioned standard and known procedures versus unknown. Vernon mentioned EGPH specifically, and I know he flies a lot of RYR stuff. RYR is a very busy operator out of EGPH from what I can tell, so the controllers there are going to expect all RYR pilots to behave the same allowing for some minor variations. If a NAS guy flies in, even with the same aircraft type, they will likely assume that the pilot will do things slightly differently, but the same overall.

 

So, you're flying with an RYR callsign, and everyone else in that fleet is just flying the standard approach. Then you come blazing in closing on the flight in front of you because I couldn't read your mind either to know you were going to behave outside of the norm for everyone else in the traffic flow, and outside of the norm for your airline (not sure what is SOP for RYR, but it doesn't look like EGPH has any CDAs). Can you do that because you're the PIC and you're in command of the aircraft? Absolutely. Did you break a reg? No. The problem, though, is that you're assuming the controller should assume you won't fly how the rest of the people are flying and arbitrarily assign you a speed restriction that matches the other flight's speeds (even though those aircraft, behaving as they always have, didn't require an explicit speed). Aviation is based off of assumptions and standards. This is the only way all of this works. Heck, even your example of beginning a speed adjustment at 4.5 DME works because controllers have observed that pattern and plan for it.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is it that you do for a living? You seem to be a very knowledgeable guy, but this discussion here points to a lot of that being book knowledge instead of operational knowledge. While book knowledge is certainly important (and commendable - we all know I'm a huge proponent of self study and reading manuals), operational knowledge is equally important, and what really drives my point here: if you're going to do something that may be considered non-normal, then it should be communicated.

 

 

 

TL;DR: If a pilot were to simply fly his plane by the book, and flex his authority in the regs, he or she could still be a giant irritation to everyone around, simply by not fitting into the mix, or letting people know to plan around this ahead of time. There's a layer on top of blindly following the regs, or being the self-important crewmember. It's called being an aviator.