HawkDsl

Real Engine 1.4

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Real Engine 1.4 (Goggle, dload at Sim Outhouse) is sweet mod that will make you a better manager of your engines. I'm late to the party on RE, but thought I'd post info I found on the C404.

 

This is the table from Teledyne:

 

C404_table.jpg

I'm working on the entries for the C404 for RE, but there are a few I have no clue what they should be, Like Maximum Continuous MP lean, or rich.  Max Cont RPM lean, or rich. And all the METO settings.

 

Anyone familiar with typical operating temp, and or behaviors for this ac??

 

The parameters set by Alebeo are a little off.. max RPM is 2700 for example, and MP is 36,5, not 40.


My RE Par File:

 

[Config]
MaxValues=57

[Floats]
// *** MP RPM Limitations ***

// Engine MP/RPM Limitations ON by default
Value_00=1.
// Engine Roughness before Failure ON. Values: between 0=OFF and 1=always rough. Intermediate values are the probality the
// enngine will run rough before failure. The engine may also fail directly.
Value_01=0.8
// Maximum Continuous MP with Lean Mixture (in Hg)
Value_02=35.0
// Maximum Continuous RPM with Lean Mixture (rpm)
Value_03=2700.
// Maximum Continuous MP with Rich Mixture (in Hg)
Value_04=35.0
// Maximum Continuous RPM with Rich Mixture (rpm)
Value_05=2700.
// METO MP (in Hg)
Value_06=35.
// METO RPM (rpm)
Value_07=2500.
// METO Time-to-fail (min)
Value_08=15.
// Take-Off MP (in Hg)
Value_09=36.5
// Take-Off RPM (rpm)
Value_10=2700.
// Take-Off Time-to-fail (min)
Value_11=5.

// *** Engine Power Limitations ***

// Engine Power Limitations ON by default ?
Value_12=1.
// Engine Roughness before Failure ON. Values: between 0=OFF and 1=always rough. Intermediate values are the probality the
// enngine will run rough before failure. The engine may also fail directly.
Value_13=0.8
// Rated Engine Power (HP)
Value_14=375.
// Maximum Continuous Power with Lean Mixture (%)
Value_15=75.
// Maximum Continuous Power with Rich Mixture (%)
Value_16=75.
// METO Power (%)
Value_17=85.
// METO Time-to-fail (min)
Value_18=30.
// Take-Off Power (%)
Value_19=83.
// Take-Off Time-to-fail (min)
Value_20=5.

// *** Mixture State ***

// Engine Failure by Mixture ON by default ?
Value_21=1.

// *** Mixture Lean/Rich Limit

// Mixture Lean Limit ON by default ?
Value_22=1.
// Mixture Rich Limit ON by default ?
Value_23=1.
// *** Spark Plug Fouling ***

// Spark Plug Fouling ON by default ?
Value_24=1.
// Idle RPM: Below this RPM spark plugs foul. Plugs cleared at >=300 rpm higher.
Value_25=600.

// *** Gear Overspeed ***

// Gear Overspeed ON by default ?
Value_26=1.
// Maximum Gear Speed Vl (KIAS)
Value_27=153.

// *** Flaps Overspeed ***

// Flaps Overspeed ON by default ?
Value_28=1.
// Flaps Asymmetric Failure ON ?
Value_29=1.
// Maximum Flap Speed: Stage 1 Vfe1 (KIAS)
Value_30=190.
// Maximum Flap Speed: Full flaps Vfe2 (KIAS)
Value_31=190.
// Not used
Value_32=0.
// Not used
Value_33=0.

// *** CHT Limitation ***

// CHT Limitations ON by default ?
Value_34=1.
// Max Allowed Cylinder Head Temperature F
Value_35=460.
// Time-to-fail (min)
Value_36=5.

// *** Oil Temperature Limitation ***

// Oil Temperature Limitations ON by default ?
Value_37=1.
// Max Allowed Oil Temperature deg F
Value_38=240.
// Time-to-fail if Oil Temp is exceeded (min)
Value_39=5.

// *** Oil Pressure Limitation ***

// Oil Pressure Limitations ON by default ?
Value_40=1.
// Max Allowed Oil Pressure psi
Value_41=100.
// Time-to-fail if Oil Pressure is exceeded (min)
Value_42=5.

// *** CHT Model ***

// Aircraft-specific parameters

// Cruise speed KTAS of aircraft at 75% pwr, 0.083 F/A at cruise altitude - to scale results to NACA 1092
Value_43=175.
// Rated Take-off engine HP of aircraft (HP)
Value_44=310.
// Supercharger type. 0=none, 0.65=low blower, 1=high blower (may be tweaked)
Value_45=0.

// Tweaks

// Cooling pressure (inH2O) generated due to slipstream of propeller at idle (reference plane) - tweaking parameter to avoid
// overheat at idle)
Value_46=2.
// Cowling efficiency: Kcowl (default: 1)
Value_47=0.9
// Cowl flaps efficiency: Kcf (default: 1)
Value_48=1.
// Minimum F/A mixture ratio with full rich mixture - mixture lever at 100% ( default: 9.5)
Value_49=9.5

// Obsolete
Value_50=0.
// Obsolete
Value_51=0.
// Obsolete
Value_52=0.

// Calculate Oil Temp variable based on CHT ?
Value_53=1.
// Max Allowed CHT deg F - for scaling of Oil temp
Value_54=460.
// Max Allowed Oil Temperature deg F - for scaling of Oil temp
Value_55=240.

// CHT Model Calculations ON by default ?
Value_56=1.

[LVars]
// MP RPM Limitations
Lvar_00=RE1_MPRPM_ON
Lvar_01=RE1_MPRPM_RoughnessON
Lvar_02=RE1_MPRPM_MaxContinuousMPLean
Lvar_03=RE1_MPRPM_MaxContinuousRPMLean
Lvar_04=RE1_MPRPM_MaxContinuousMPRich
Lvar_05=RE1_MPRPM_MaxContinuousRPMRich
Lvar_06=RE1_MPRPM_MetoMP
Lvar_07=RE1_MPRPM_MetoRPM
Lvar_08=RE1_MPRPM_MetoTTF
Lvar_09=RE1_MPRPM_TakeOffMP
Lvar_10=RE1_MPRPM_TakeOffRPM
Lvar_11=RE1_MPRPM_TakeOffTTF

// Engine Power Limitations
Lvar_12=RE1_Pwr_ON
Lvar_13=RE1_Pwr_RoughnessON
Lvar_14=RE1_Pwr_EngineHP
Lvar_15=RE1_Pwr_MaxContinuousPwrLean
Lvar_16=RE1_Pwr_MaxContinuousPwrRich
Lvar_17=RE1_Pwr_MetoPwr
Lvar_18=RE1_Pwr_MetoTTF
Lvar_19=RE1_Pwr_TakeOffPwr
Lvar_20=RE1_Pwr_TakeOffTTF

// Mixture State
Lvar_21=RE1_MixtureState_ON

// Mixture Lean/Rich Limit
Lvar_22=RE1_MixLeanLimit_ON
Lvar_23=RE1_MixRichLimit_ON

// Spark Plug Fouling
Lvar_24=RE1_PlugFoul_ON
Lvar_25=RE1_PlugFoul_RPM

// Gear Overspeed
Lvar_26=RE1_GearOverspeed_ON
Lvar_27=RE1_GearOverspeed_Vle

// Flaps Overspeed
Lvar_28=RE1_FlapsOverspeed_ON
Lvar_29=RE1_FlapsOverspeed_AsymmetricFlapsFailureON
Lvar_30=RE1_FlapsOverspeed_Vfe1
Lvar_31=RE1_FlapsOverspeed_VfeFull
Lvar_32=RE1_FlapsOverspeed_Vfo1
Lvar_33=RE1_FlapsOverspeed_VfoFull

// CHT Limitation
Lvar_34=RE1_CHT_ON
Lvar_35=RE1_CHT_MaxCHT
Lvar_36=RE1_CHT_TTF

// Oil Temperature Limitation
Lvar_37=RE1_OilTemp_ON
Lvar_38=RE1_OilTemp_MaxOilTemp
Lvar_39=RE1_OilTemp_TTF

// Oil Pressure Limitation
Lvar_40=RE1_OilPress_ON
Lvar_41=RE1_OilPress_MaxOilPress
Lvar_42=RE1_OilPress_TTF

// CHT Model
Lvar_43=RE_CHTmodel_Vc
Lvar_44=RE_CHTmodel_HP
Lvar_45=RE_CHTmodel_Ksuperch

Lvar_46=RE_CHTmodel_qcidleR
Lvar_47=RE_CHTmodel_Kcowl
Lvar_48=RE_CHTmodel_Kcf
Lvar_49=RE_CHTmodel_FullRichMR

Lvar_50=RE_CHTmodel_Kt
Lvar_51=RE_CHTmodel_MinCHTChangeRate
Lvar_52=RE_CHTmodel_MaxCHTChangeRate

Lvar_53=RE_CHTmodel_SetOilTemp
Lvar_54=RE_CHTmodel_MaxCHT
Lvar_55=RE_CHTmodel_MaxOilTemp

Lvar_56=RE_CHTModel_ON
 

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Disregard, more research needed. Using the teledyne chart (official), the plane is not flyable with provided cfg.

 

 

CHT air file edit: change the .air file entry for CHT Rate of Change to: 0.120000

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never heard of real engine 1.4. until now.    awseome program once configured correctly. thanks for sharing!

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Hello HawkDsl,

 

Considering this post is about 1.5 years old, I'm curious if you were able to make any progress with the Alabeo C404 Titan and Real Engine v1.4. As of late, I've really taken a liking to the aircraft in spite of the standard Alabeo/Carenado negatives.  I have the Cessna C404 POH w/ limitations and performance data and I thought I could possibly help out if you still have the interest.  The RE v1.4 program looks like a natural for this machine and I thought I would give it a go although the instructions appear a bit daunting. I any case, I thought I would inquire to see if you or anyone else have any updates relative to the RE 1.4 program.

 

Many thanks / Les Parson

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Hi Les.

 

Sorry, but I gave up on the C404, and it's parked in my collection of "looked good at the time" hanger. Hope you figured out RE1.4 - It's a great add on for pistons.

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@Hawk I don't know why your engine data differ from the official Cessna POH but e.g. RPM/MP of the Alabeo 404 exactly match the RW POH which is IMO the valid source.

  • Upvote 1

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I have the RW POH also and made the necessary changes without issue. There have been reports of power loss in the cruise environment with the Alabeo C404. At first, I thought it was the carb heat issue w/ FSX, so i tried the "H" key. That didn't seem to work. After a few minutes, power returns to nomral. I don't thnk this has anything to with the RE 1.4 program, but would sure like to hear comments from others.

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Don't mix up carb ice and prop ice.  FSX simulates prop icing as well and if you turn on prop de-ice (also H key in most cases) it takes a few minutes as IRL to remove the ice from the prop.

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So, the H key applies to both carb ice and prop ice? I thought it was only the former.

 

In any case, I don't know if this the cause of the power loss, specific to the C404. 

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Hi, I have it working but the CTC gauge does not show up (FSX Baron 58) and only 1 engine appears to be noticed by the programme? I tried to set it up on the Default Cessna C172 but the Gauges on the VC and 2D panels disappeared.

Can someone point me in the right direction please, I baffled.... again hehe..:blink:

Many Thanks

Ro9

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On 2/8/2017 at 1:36 AM, J35OE said:

@Hawk I don't know why your engine data differ from the official Cessna POH but e.g. RPM/MP of the Alabeo 404 exactly match the RW POH which is IMO the valid source.

The numbers I got were from the engine manufacture. I've been outa the loop for bit, and now I'm trying the B58.

 

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The data the engine manufacturer provides and the data from the POH don't necessarily need to be identical.

As a pilot (or technician) flying/working on this specific aircraft you should use the data provided by the aircraft manufacturer. 

 

Btw, are you sure that you are looking at the info for the correct engine?  The GTSIO-520-M is rated at 375hp and the engine you quoted at 310hp....

Edited by J35OE

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The C404 Tittan has Continental GTSIO-520M engines. The G is for geared (ratio between Prop and Engine RPM: 1:1.5. 375 hp at 2235 Prop RPM = 3350 engine RPM.

Unfortunately, the RPM gauge in the plane shows engine RPM and the engine data is wrong. Max speed 3350/min, Gear Ratio 1.5. 

Prepar3d V4 does not use the hp value at all, but calculates engine power using displacement, MP, RPM and compression ratio (which is 7.5, not 7.3).

In order to get realistic performance data despite of the wrong engine speed, the displacement per cylinder has to be higher. It is 90 cu-in, another mistake since 520/6 = 86.7. Gear ratio would bring that to a workaround value of 1.5 * 86.7 = 130 cu-in. However, the rest of the aircraft suits best at about 105 cu-in. Realistic fuel flows and cruise performance.

Beta max of prop has to be increased.

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2 hours ago, AndiKunzi said:

1.Unfortunately, the RPM gauge in the plane shows engine RPM and the engine data is wrong. Max speed 3350/min, Gear Ratio 1.5. 

2.Prepar3d V4 does not use the hp value at all, but calculates engine power using displacement, MP, RPM and compression ratio (which is 7.5, not 7.3).

3.In order to get realistic performance data despite of the wrong engine speed, the displacement per cylinder has to be higher. 

4.Beta max of prop has to be increased.

1. Just checked and the RPM gauge in the Alabeo 404 shows prop RPM.

2. Same goes for FSX, P3Dv1 and higher.

3. Didn't notice any noticable differences in performance compared to the POH despite the wrong values.

4. Please note that the blade angle values in the cfg file are meaningless as the prop performance is defined in the air file. It's a bit similar concerning the engine performance. 

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I do use P3D V4.

1. If I set the engine speed to 3350 max and the gear ratio to 1.5, the engine speed is displayed: way after redline.

3. POH values are for max. take-off mass or must be corrected. The performance with 2 pilots only (default on my plane) is comparable to an almost fully loaded C404.

4. Increasing beta max. prevents the prop to reach max. pitch at higher TAS. Using default setting, the prop exceeds redline with feathered prop in cruise at FL250.

May be there's a difference between P3D and FSX. My aircraft.cfg also includes those variables below the headline "Flight tuning". I tried to adjust the parameters because I use the simulator for serious training, especially for emergency procedures which cannot be done safely in a real plane. We operate a real world C421C, the pressurized sibling of the C404. (Still looking fpr an Aspen EFD1000 for the sim.)

I've adjusted flaps drag (and lift), prop beta max, engine displacement, compression ratio and critical altitude so far. When I'm ready, I'll post the figures here.

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14 hours ago, AndiKunzi said:

1. If I set the engine speed to 3350 max and the gear ratio to 1.5, the engine speed is displayed: way after redline.

3. POH values are for max. take-off mass or must be corrected. The performance with 2 pilots only (default on my plane) is comparable to an almost fully loaded C404.

4. Increasing beta max. prevents the prop to reach max. pitch at higher TAS. Using default setting, the prop exceeds redline with feathered prop in cruise at FL250.

1. You did change the engine speed and added a gear ratio in the cfg file?   It doesn't work that easy. You can't simply alter values in the cfg file without doing the major work in the air file!!!

3+4 are not valid if you have changed the cfg file with your 'new' engine.  With the default FDE I get approx 1500ft/min at MTOW which is correct according to the POH.

Stall speed is also correct with flaps up/down, hence flap lift seems to be correct.

 

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At default settings:

Fuel Flow is way too low since engine power is not correct. Thus, the power settings are incorrect, too. FF in the correct range are important checks at take-off and when setting climb power.

(The leaning model is also not working as it should: on a TIO engine with wastegate controller, the engine controls do not have to change with altitude. That's something which would have to be changed in the air file. Somebody with knowledge here about how to do that?)

Drag / sink rate is way too low with gear and flaps down. Those are split flaps which do produce a lot of drag. Stall speed is not affected by flaps drag coefficient, it is affected by flaps lift coefficient (and mainly by wing loading, of course).

If you pull the engines in a real life C404 or C421, the glide ratio in landing configuration is 1:stone. 

(I'm a real life CPL/ME/IR with > 1000 h ME time)

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2 minutes ago, AndiKunzi said:

At default settings:

1. Fuel Flow is way too low since engine power is not correct. Thus, the power settings are incorrect, too.

2. Stall speed is not affected by flaps drag.

1. Not experiencing the fuel flow/power setting problems here. You know that mixture simulation and hence leaning in FSX/P3D is completely wrong?

2. You wrote that you changed the flaps lift!

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Yes, leaning is wrong, but power settings are working quite well on FSX/P3D (MP, RPM, FF for given percentage of MCP), except for the position of the mixture levers.

One of the most important checks during T/O is FF within T/O range. If it is low, the T/O has to be rejected.

For the Cessna 400 series, it is FF in the white arc.

Typical cruise for a C404 / C421 is 60 %, 30 inHG, 1700 RPM, 36 GPH / 214 pph.

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4 hours ago, AndiKunzi said:

Typical cruise for a C404 / C421 is 60 %, 30 inHG, 1700 RPM, 36 GPH / 214 pph.

Using your example (which isn't mentioned in my POH) I get 212pph (50° ROP).

As the climb performance apparently also greatly differs from the POH data on your 404, maybe P3Dv4 really changed the FDE calculation.

I'm still using FSX after I got a refund for P3Dv4. 

That said, in the few weeks I used v4 I unfortunately didn't notice any difference concerning the FDE.

 

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Do you know how to have a suction pump on both engines?

If I have a failure of the critical one (L), the suction fails. All twins must have suction pumps on both engines and a gauge for both pumps, usually one pressure gauge with 2 red mechanical pop-up indicators.

If I train other pilots, I want to alter the engines which go off, but not losing suction.

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2 hours ago, AndiKunzi said:

Do you know how to have a suction pump on both engines?

simply add a second one in the cfg file.

[vacuum_system]
max_pressure=5.0
vacuum_type=1
electric_backup_pressure=4.5
engine_map=1,1,0,0
 

 

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I have returned to the C404 in anticipation of the upcoming C421C. I absolutely loved the Flight 1 C421, which seems like about 50 years ago. I also have a 1980 C404 POH and a 1979 C421C POH. I never realized engines are nearly identical: 

C404 

GTSIO-520-M: Six-Cylinder, Geared, Turbocharged, Fuel-Injected Engines. 375 Rated Horsepower at 2235 Propeller RPM and 40.0 Inches Hg. Manifold Pressure to 16,000 feet.

C421C

GTSIO-520-L: Six-Cylinder Geared, Turbocharged, Fuel-Injected Engines. 375 Rated Horsepower at 2235 Propeller RPM and 39.0 Inches Hg. Manifold Pressure to 20,000 feet. 

When you say Fuel Flow is low and Drag / Sink rate is low, can you detail steps to correct .air file?  I really wish there was someone equal to Brent Stolle with the expertise to adjust FDE dynamics as exist in real-world ops. As I understand it, he is no longer in engaged in flight sim stuff. 

I recently made the switch from FSX to P3DV4, more out of desperation with continuous FSX freezes with Win 7/64. I downloaded the C404 yesterday for P3DV4 and can perform some testing as it relates to FF as mentioned above. I like the beastly feel of the 404 and would like to see it as close as possible to real-world. I feel this is a real opportunity as there are apparently folks on this thread with real time on C404/C421. Moreover, when the 421 is released, hopefully it will be close to ideal as it relates to performance accuracy. 

 

Les Parson

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