Trying to achieve the Dream of Smooth Stutter Free Simming

[GSalden 4,656]

Frankly I think having the sim and the sim's core files on different drives can be bad. I have win7 on another slower sataII ssd. That might be the reason why I get slowdowns sometimes.

 

It makes logical sense (UAC problems aside - which can be fixed by disabling UAC completely) to have FSX/P3D on the same drive as your OS... because there's still config files loaded by your addons and the sim on the OS disk.

Ryan, I have tried several configs and on my system the following works the best :

- 60 Gb SSD Windows 7 64

- 128 Gb SSD P3D + Aerosoft airports

- 256 Gb SSD photoscenery +'addon airports / scenery

- 512 Gb SSD photoscenery + Night Environment

[vgbaron 3,605]

I am not dismissing your experience, but do you do quickish panning, looking from left to right with TIR when on the runway or VFR flying ? For a lack of better word dont you get any choppiness ? Like mountains jumping between the frames ?

I have my head on a swivel when I'm flying. Pretty much just as IRL. I don't jerk my head left or right, if that's what you mean, but I move it as I would in a cockpit. Sometimes leaning forward and looking left to catch the rwy, sometimes just looking at the scenery.

 

I've found that 1) keeping extraneous light out and 2) being sure the TCPro sensors are vertical prevents issues for me. I've found on occasion that some reflected light behind me would cause issues. BUt I generally have NO issues with TIR at 20.

 

20 fps may be smooth in that the frames are evenly spaced I get that, but for me it is just a unplayable jerky mess.

That's my point - if it's jerky it's not smooth BUT that's not the fault of the FPS - it SHOULD be smooth at 20. That's like saying "It's black all the time except when it's white" Cannot have smooth and jerky in the same reference.

 

It like the folks posting that FSX/P3D runs perfectly fine on Windows 10 - and then go on to ask why this doesn't work or that doesn't work. Either it runs perfectly or not. Smooth or jerky.

 

Just so we don't restart the whole discussion, I accept that some systems are not set up properly to be smooth at 20 and some people's eyes are more sensitive but GENERALLY speaking - it should work fine and be a lot better than bouncing around at 30/40/60 etc.

 

Vic

[Bobsk8 12,679]

I used to use trackIR all the time for VFR low level flying, and have had one for many years. Since I have been flying air liners at high altitudes, I have lately just not bothered to turn it on, and use EZdok and the joystick hat to look around. Don't have to hold my head still, and can stop the view anywhere I want. Just don't see much use for it anymore. 

[Guest]

The great stutter debate continues ... I'm curious as to what you folks think about these videos and if you see stutters or not?

 

30 Hz 

 

60 Hz

 

Xplane stutters 30 Hz (cure to removing stutters was to turn OFF HDR)

 

30 Hz  V2.5 with add-ons

 

30 Hz  Base v2.5

 

I've used TrackIR without any stutter issues at 30Hz.  The cure to stutters has always been adjusting my graphics settings and being careful with add-ons used and/or configuring those add-ons.  I've applied this process to FSX, P3D, XP10, DCS, etc. etc.  All that having top tier CPU/GPU does is allow me to turn up a "few" more settings (not many).

 

What is most likely to happen from those that take the time to look at these videos is that some will see stutters, some will not and it will vary based on browser used, YouTube server loads, your ISP, hops to the server, and/or any number of environment specific issues. 

 

I offered this up as a download: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bw0Q-fAfEZwyVW8xdEVjZnUxRXc/view?usp=sharing some time ago so folks can view the video locally (if you have a good 4K video player) ... but some still see stutters.  The only conclusion I can come for folks still seeing stutters is not a perception issue, but a hardware/environment issue.

 

And if anyone is in the SF/BayArea and would like a try (to validate it's not a perception thing) ... with TrackIR on your head at 30hz ... then just give me a shout.  

 

I'm using ye old reflector hat for my TrackIR and it can something get confused with my "silver reflective hair" but it does a reasonable just of tracking my head movement.  But like others, over the years I find myself using space + mouse and a seat position maps set to 4 way hat switch on my Yoke.  TrackIR is "ok" but for I'm not a big fan of looking out the side of my eye to view my monitor.

 

But for consistent time frames it's really just a matter of finding out what causing the stutter by experimenting.  I can make just about any 3D game/sim stutter regardless of hardware tossed at it ... just have to find the balance of visuals to time frame ratio one is happy with.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[Murmur 3,941]

I see some stutters on some of them, while others I see very smooth. I agree, that the smoothness (i.e. a steady frame rate) is very important.

 

A smooth (in the meaning of steady fps) 30 fps, feels "smooth" for me. As I previously said, my threshold is around 35 fps, so it's close to 30.

 

On the other hand, 20 fps (be it smooth, in the meaning of steady fps, or not) for me do not feel "smooth", and unpleasant to fly. I can definitely feel the difference between a very smooth 20 fps and a very smooth 60 fps. I find unpleasant to fly in 20 fps, even if it's very smooth. Others may feel differently.

 

A very smooth 30 fps, on the other hand, feel a lot better for me, and much more acceptable.

[Bobsk8 12,679]

The only really objectionable stutter were the  X Plane video with the HDR on. The rest of the videos would not bother me at all. 

[Slayer 190]

This is a rather old article but it still applies today. They looked at this same problem in the 80's and a lot of what you see people posting in here supports this. 

 

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880012649.pdf

 

Take from it what you will but I find it enlightening.

 

Update would refer to what we call FPS and refresh is still refresh rate of the monitor.

[Bobsk8 12,679]

This is a rather old article but it still applies today. They looked at this same problem in the 80's and a lot of what you see people posting in here supports this. 

 

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19880012649.pdf

 

Take from it what you will but I find it enlightening.

 

Update would refer to what we call FPS and refresh is still refresh rate of the monitor.

 

That is a really old school article referencing Calligraphic Projectors which the company I worked at was the main source of this type of projection, which was based on CRTs and scanning the image on a CRT which is done line by line. Depending on the scanning rate and the persistence of the phosphors on the CRT, if the refresh rate is below a certain speed you see flicker in the image.   The flicker is caused by the decay of the brightness of the phosphor after each line is scanned. The scan rates are chosen in conjunction with the decay rate of the phosphor on the CRT to minimize this flicker.

 

 The technology in use today, is based on a totally different principal.  LCD and DLP and LCOS and OLED  displays are more like a series of still images flashed on the screen , all at once rather than scanned in with an electron beam. It is more like a slide show, and a slide is there until it is time for the next slide, and then it is presented. There is no flicker involved in this technology just one slide after another flashed on the screen. The main concern is that the refresh rate of the image is  able to create a smooth image when there is motion from frame to frame. If the frame  rate is low, and the motion is large between frames, you see a jump in movement  from one image to another like a slide show. In flight sims, there is not a great deal of fast motion from frame to frame. When you are flying in an aircraft, you are a long distance away from the scenery, sometimes many miles, and the motion of the moving scenery is really slow. So this FPS is not so important. If you are playing a combat type video game with close in battles, it is a totally different story, since fast close in  motion is a critical part of the game. Then fast FPS are important from one frame to the next so that you perceive a smooth motion.    

 

Refresh rates of CRT monitors and projectors as described in this article and refresh rates of today's displays are apples and oranges and have no relationship to one another. 

 

BTW, they stopped using Calligraphic projectors years ago. 

[Slayer 190]

The principles of needing a higher refresh rate/FPS at higher velocities and turn rates still applies. Today we get screen tearing instead.

 

Quote: "The "flicker" region is where the human eye can detect the actual refresh on the screen."

 

While there are differences between a CRT and LCD the idea is still the same.

[Bobsk8 12,679]

The principles of needing a higher refresh rate/FPS at higher velocities and turn rates still applies. Today we get screen tearing instead.

 

Quote: "The "flicker" region is where the human eye can detect the actual refresh on the screen."

 

While there are differences between a CRT and LCD the idea is still the same.

 

No it is not, and you don't know what you are talking about. Spreading misinformation on a technical subject. Flicker is where the eye perceives the image going dark and going light again like a strobe light effect. If you have a variable frequency strobe light, and you turn the frequency down, at some point the human eye will see the image flicker on and off, and that is where the term "flicker " comes from. This was mainly a problem with CRT displays. Study up on it before you post statements that are totally inaccurate and misleading. 

[jdwgraf 52]

 

 

The great stutter debate continues ... I'm curious as to what you folks think about these videos and if you see stutters or not?


30 Hz

60 Hz

 

The only thing missing are the fluffy dice .

 

John

[ryanbatc 12,835]

Derp shoulda thought of this before...  XP10 is stutter free.  Have you tried that?

[Slayer 190]

No it is not, and you don't know what you are talking about. Spreading misinformation on a technical subject. Flicker is where the eye perceives the image going dark and going light again like a strobe light effect. If you have a variable frequency strobe light, and you turn the frequency down, at some point the human eye will see the image flicker on and off, and that is where the term "flicker " comes from. This was mainly a problem with CRT displays. Study up on it before you post statements that are totally inaccurate and misleading. 

 

 

 

How you think reposting information from a NASA article is misinformation is beyond me. Where was a strobe light ever inferred or talked about at all?  Just because a CRT has scanlines and a LCD  is changing the pixels is irrelevant. We still have refresh rate and FPS and this is the crux  of this discussion. Sorry if you take it as a personal attack , but it's not. 

[SteveW 1,792]

How long a Phosphor dot glows after being energised from an electron beam in a CRT is what counts. The beam scans all the dots from top to bottom. As the beam passes each dot they start to glow. Once the beam has passed, the Phosphor dots go dim behind and follow the refresh down the screen. This is what some people refer to as strobing. Another effect noticed due to this is beating or coincidence with ambient lighting. CRT refresh rates were chosen to avoid coincidence with AC lighting.

 

If you've ever held two linear polaroid lenses at 90 degrees you'd have noticed no light gets through. This is the principle of the LCD. We don't get the strobe of Phosphor glow diminishing. If we set 20fps on a 60Hz refresh we see each frame three times. If we set 30fps, we see each frame twice. If we set the fps at somewhere in between we get half a buffer filled before the screen displays the buffer. So the old frame is shown with some percentage of next frame drawn on top, that's tearing. We can hold back the buffer until the screen has refreshed so we don't see a tear. But then, periodically we get a micro stutter as the frame rate does not fall in line with the monitor refresh.

 

Once all that is worked out we find we need a frame rate that coincides with the monitor refresh, that helps the setup a lot. If we can go above thirty fps it also helps because we have less time between frames, and less time for the VSync to wait. But if we have to go below 30, say 20, we need to be sure we have a very consistent time between frames, hence the look ahead buffer.

[mickatmian 52]

 

 

mickatmian, on 11 Sept 2015 - 6:27 PM, said:
20 fps may be smooth in that the frames are evenly spaced I get that, but for me it is just a unplayable jerky mess.

That's my point - if it's jerky it's not smooth BUT that's not the fault of the FPS - it SHOULD be smooth at 20. That's like saying "It's black all the time except when it's white" Cannot have smooth and jerky in the same reference.

It like the folks posting that FSX/P3D runs perfectly fine on Windows 10 - and then go on to ask why this doesn't work or that doesn't work. Either it runs perfectly or not. Smooth or jerky.

Just so we don't restart the whole discussion, I accept that some systems are not set up properly to be smooth at 20 and some people's eyes are more sensitive but GENERALLY speaking - it should work fine and be a lot better than bouncing around at 30/40/60 etc.

 

Vic, will you please stop inferring that my and other systems are not set up correctly. I have been doing this since day one of flight sims and take exception to you continually beating the same drum with regard to system setup. why can you not accept that you are not the only one who can set up a system correctly. Even though you say you accept that "some people's eyes are more sensitive" you still seem to think we should be fine at 20 fps.  

 

Where has anyone said their sim bounces around at 30+ fps. I run a home built cockpit with 3 screens at 6000x1080 resolution + a further screen for gauges and at 30 fps it certainly does not "bounce around" (unless in cockpit mode using EZCA) but it does have a few stutters at low level in turns,which I find acceptable and a limitation of my hardware, what I do not like are the micro stutters that occur every couple of seconds. If I remember correctly Rob referenced this some time ago as being caused by the sim producing long and short frames, hopefully at some point LM will address this (perhaps in P3D 3) and yes they do still occur when using a single 1920x1080 screen.

 

Mick