Airshow Tragedy

[n4gix 4,947]

For both the Chicago and Gary airshows, the CPD Waterpatrol, State Trooper Water Patrol and Coast Guard work together to close off the "airshow box" from all boat traffic.

 

In Chicago virtually the entire beach area along LSD (Lakeshore Drive) have excellent viewpoints. The Gary show takes place along the Marquette Beach area.

[WR269 367]

I think some good points were made here, would love to see the end report.

 

The manoeuvre by the Hunter was nothing really special, a very basic loop practiced from the beginning of your Air Force career...they get you to fly at 200ft and pull into a loop, so when you come out of the loop you are exactly 200ft again. Looking at the footage, he was around 500 to 1000ft when he started, hard to tell, but when he is at the top of the loop, he is not straight, he slides to the side and the descent begins, I don't think he ever got to be as high as he wanted to be.

The Hunter is a large fighter, about as maneuvreable as a Corsair, and you could see he was in trouble.

 

Do we know the status of the pilot?

 

A real pity all around, but going the old knee jerk "should have done this" or "should have flown over there" are not going anywhere, this show has been held for years, and an accident by an aircraft coming out of a low loop is unfortunately not that rare.

 

[CavalierDuck 106]

There are already many "free" air shows around the coastal resorts of Britain throughout the summer, with the majority of the flying activities taking place over the water.

 

The Shoreham airshow is something different.  It is organised by the Royal Air Forces Association, a charity supporting past and present Royal Air Force personnel, as a fund-raising event.  It is not a "commercial" show, the emphasis is on the RAFA charity and the work it does.  To just move the show out over the water, thereby making it a free event, would negate the reason for its existence in the first place. 

 

I was at the show on Saturday and witnessed the sad and horrific events of that day.

[tutmeister 695]

All the best airshows in the world take place inland. Saying move it off shore doesn't fix anything.

There are still plenty of land based airshows so whatever recommendations and regulation changes that are made have to be relevant to all airshows, not one in particular.

This was a horrible accident that took place during a routine aerobatics manoeuvre. Before saying it should have been done like this, wait and see what the outcome of the caa investigation is.

To those saying do it over water, what is your answer to the gnat crash that took place at carfest last month? If over water is your only answer then you are saying ban all land based airshows.

 

Chris

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

There are already many "free" air shows around the coastal resorts of Britain throughout the summer, with the majority of the flying activities taking place over the water.

 

The Shoreham airshow is something different. It is organised by the Royal Air Forces Association, a charity supporting past and present Royal Air Force personnel, as a fund-raising event. It is not a "commercial" show, the emphasis is on the RAFA charity and the work it does. To just move the show out over the water, thereby making it a free event, would negate the reason for its existence in the first place.

 

I was at the show on Saturday and witnessed the sad and horrific events of that day.

Again the point is missed somehow, by moving it over water doesn't necessarily make it free, just like other air shows over water are not free, this has already been said so why are you saying it is free when over water when other water airshows are successful at doing this and making money?

 

Just as many people watch the Shoreham airshow for free by standing just outside the airport perimeter. You charge entry to Shoreham to see the static display and have a disegnated viewing area on the shoreline....just like other water airshows....WOW this is unbelievable that people keep saying FREE

 

I've been to both water and land airshows and both have their benefits, and both have ways of making money, and both have free spectators just outside of the pay areas, makes no difference if it is over the water or over the airport, their will always be people willing to pay extra for extra and others watching for free.

 

I prefer to pay because I want to see the aircraft up close, talk to the pilots, get a program, have the dialogue over the loudspeakers, I've done this at both Water and Land based airshows and enjoy them both.

 

 

All the best airshows in the world take place inland. Saying move it off shore doesn't fix anything.

 

The difference being is where over land you hold it. Some are held in more remote areas. I am not from Brighton but I would think it is a rather built up area and popular summer destination on the shore so maybe (or maybe not) a good idea to shift it offshore? 

 

This is for the organizers to decide this and not me, I am just someone looking at Google Earth and thinking common sense to shift it over water perhaps

[tutmeister 695]

Again, moving air shows over water is not an answer. There are more air shows in the world than ones located near the seaside. Whatever regulation changes or recommendations that are made need to be applicable to ALL air shows.

It is entirely possible that no changes will be made as the inquest might find that the chances of this happening again are slight or for whatever reason the current regulations are enough.

 

Chris

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

Again, moving air shows over water is not an answer.

 

Whatever....I am booked to go to one over water in 2 weeks which is one of the best ones in the world...

 

Also I still don't understand your argument about aerobatics over water. They do it all the time. They are not doing aerobatics in the middle of the ocean, they are doing them just off the shoreline. The airshow I am about to go to the pilot would have 60% to 70% of the horizon being land and the rest water, this is the nature of the horseshoe bay they are performing in just offshore but the horizon is still majority land. 

 

The two airshows I go to in New Zealand are one held over Wellington Harbour which is surrounded by mountains and you can't see a horizon ever due to mountains, the other one is in Wairapa which is also a mountain valley so no horizon there either. Stunts performed very well in both locations even though the pilot doesn't have a horizon to reference, only mountains. 

 

Anyhow. my point was that is doesn't matter over land or water or in the mountains even, airshows are very successful in all these location, I prefer the ones over water because you get a better view point. I also like ones in the desert because it is also a more open area and a fantastic view of everything. Over populated areas are obviously going to be more and more rare as population densities in places keep growing and many smaller airports close due to urban growth, this is a reality everywhere in the world. 

[mgh 89]

 

 

For both the Chicago and Gary airshows, the CPD Waterpatrol, State Trooper Water Patrol and Coast Guard work together to close off the "airshow box" from all boat traffic.

 

I am not sure that there is power in the UK to extrude shipping from the sea for the purpose of an airshow.

There are maritime Temporary Exclusion Zones (TEZ) but only if a casualty is “wrecked, damaged or in distress.”  Temporary Danger Areas (TDA) can be set up to prevent aircraft flights around a TEZ.

 

Also for example, the Royal Navy's notice about its Tipner firing range states;

 

"Whilst firings are taking place all craft are, as far as is practicable, to keep clear of the danger area outlined in paragraph 1 above; alternatively those navigating the Portchester Channel are to pass through the area as quickly as possible."
 

[Paul Golding 92]

I am not sure that there is power in the UK to extrude shipping from the sea for the purpose of an airshow.

 

There are maritime Temporary Exclusion Zones (TEZ) but only if a casualty is “wrecked, damaged or in distress.” Temporary Danger Areas (TDA) can be set up to prevent aircraft flights around a TEZ.

 

Also for example, the Royal Navy's notice about its Tipner firing range states;

 

"Whilst firings are taking place all craft are, as far as is practicable, to keep clear of the danger area outlined in paragraph 1 above; alternatively those navigating the Portchester Channel are to pass through the area as quickly as possible."

 

Whether there is the power or not Gerry, in practice this has been successfully done off Southend seafront for years.

[mgh 89]

 

 

Whether there is the power or not Gerry, in practice this has been successfully done off Southend seafront for years.

 

Details please.

[tutmeister 695]

Matthew,

 

I'm not arguing against aerobatics over water or that airshows over water cannot be successful - plenty are in the UK. Not sure I ever posted anything to that end anyway.

 

I'm arguing against the fact that it is an answer to the problem this accident raised.

Everyone is saying, just do airshows over water and this wouldn't have happened. That is not an option for most airshows as they are land based and therefore you cannot use it as a new regulation for all airshows.

I'm simply stating that if the CAA were to draw up new regulations or restrictions that airshows can only take place over water that would effectively kill off most airshows and therefore I cannot see it being used as an answer to this problem.

 

Chris

[Paul Golding 92]

Details please.

A display area, from the shore out for about 3/4 mile edged by Southend pier to the east and Leigh/Two Tree Island around 1 1/2 to 2 miles to the west is marked with buoys and kept clear by police launch and coastguard.

Of course there is a problem with this; a shed load of cruisers and yachts line the seaward side opposite the beach, so if there's an accident out there........well it's a bit like having an accident on a road outside the display area I guess.

[ailchim 206]

I'm beginning to think I'm a jinx - I attended the airshow at RNAS Culdrose earlier this month at which both the Gnat that crashed at Oulton Park and the Hunter that came down at Shoreham displayed.  But for the grace of God....

 

The dull-brained end of the UK press is starting to whip up a storm over despite the fact that they've never had any interest in the topic previously.  However, the CAA had no option but to put restrictions on the rest of the display season pending discovery of the resaons for the crashes.  

 

Clearly if there's some systematic cause (e,g, poor maintenance or metal fatigue) then there will be permanent changes but hopefully they'll be around tighter inspection regimes rather than banning or crippling displays.  If the cause is pilot error then that's something that can happen anywhere, anytime.. The pilots of both aircraft were highly experienced (the Gnat was flown by an ex Red Arrow pilot and the Hunter was flown by an ex RAF Harrier fast jet jockey).  If we're going to start banning airshows for that, then maybe Heathrow airport ought to be closed, surrounded as it is by motorways and built up areas and there should be no more cermonial flypasts over Buckingham Palace...  

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

Matthew,

 

I'm not arguing against aerobatics over water or that airshows over water cannot be successful - plenty are in the UK. Not sure I ever posted anything to that end anyway.

 

I'm arguing against the fact that it is an answer to the problem this accident raised.

Everyone is saying, just do airshows over water and this wouldn't have happened. That is not an option for most airshows as they are land based and therefore you cannot use it as a new regulation for all airshows.

I'm simply stating that if the CAA were to draw up new regulations or restrictions that airshows can only take place over water that would effectively kill off most airshows and therefore I cannot see it being used as an answer to this problem.

 

Chris

I never said move air shows over water, what I said was I could see this one being successfully relocated over the water because the airfield is less then 1 km from the water, the local population may not want it over the airport again after this, and the number one reason being I think it would be awesome to watch an airshow from Brighton Pier or anywhere along that shoreline.

 

Again I was only ever speaking of this airshow and not others

[KevinAu 441]

I never said move air shows over water, what I said was I could see this one being successfully relocated over the water because the airfield is less then 1 km from the water, the local population may not want it over the airport again after this, and the number one reason being I think it would be awesome to watch an airshow from Brighton Pier or anywhere along that shoreline.

 

Again I was only ever speaking of this airshow and not others

What if a plane crashes into a boat? Where do we move the show to then?