Three More Computers Added Into The Mix

[martin-w 3,235]

Avsim is going bonkers here, offline, online, offline on line... will respond later.

[martin-w 3,235]

TechguyMaxC, on 06 Sept 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

Edit: this post has been heavily edited to comply with quotation limits imposed by the forum's software. I originally had 8 quote blocks but the maximum, apparently, is 5. Also, when attempting to split into 2 separate posts the forum software automatically attempts to merge the posts (and fails) due to its own limitation on quotes. If the following isn't perfectly clear, please ask for clarification.

I'm not quoting your entire post Max as the forum has been going bonkers for me today.

 

 

Okay, I think you’re being very crafty here Max, deliberately over complicating the issue.

 

These are the statements you made that I objected to.

 

 

1. I wouldn't spend this much money on hardware and use air cooling. Even closed loop, off-the-shelf systems are better and quieter than any air cooler you can buy.

 

So that’s “better than ANY air cooler”. A very definitive statement there, I think you will agree. Your excuse is that you were “just generalizing” and therefore ignoring the exceptions to the rule. Well no sir, you shouldn’t be ignoring the exceptions to the rule, because those exceptions to the rule are precisely the products that those not wanting to purchase AIO water coolers need to be aware of. By writing them off and simply generalizing you do us a disservice…. thus why I found it necessary to comment.

 

 

2. if you buy a tower system and stand it up, then hang a huge hunk of metal off the CPU socket at a 90 degree angle you're putting lots of stress on the motherboard and *will* warp the board over time.

 

Again, notice how definitive you were, how you emphasized WILL? You say you made “no specific claims about the D15”, just “large tower coolers in general”. Well again, no Max, you shouldn’t generalize and for the same reason. Namely those not favoring AIO coolers need to be aware that the D15 isn’t a cooler that warps motherboards, and it shouldn’t be placed amongst your generalized category of motherboard warping designs. This is important information that you’re preventing a potential purchaser from having access to. A potential purchaser also needs to be aware that the other top tier tower coolers, with properly designed mounting systems, are also safe to mount on a motherboard.

 

I also find it rather fascinating that you deny referring specifically to the D15… despite quoting my comments on the D15 and then responding directly to that quote with “I wouldn’t spend this much money on hardware and use air cooling” etc.

 

 

"most of us"? Who are you speaking for here? You make it sound like AIO coolers are DC8s and your HSF is a Tesla. Noise quality is totally subjective.

Well quite clearly I’m talking about the average enthusiast. Some individuals [i suspect you] are less concerned about noise, instead they prefer to extract the best performance from their rigs and accept higher noise levels.

 

Not at all am I suggesting that AIO’s are DC8’s. Merely responding to you quoting my D15 comments and then responding to that by definitively stating that, and I quote… “Even closed loop off the shelf systems are better and quieter than any air cooler you can buy”.

 

The moral of the story is that generalized statements that ignore the capabilities of the best air coolers on the market aren’t particularly helpful for those wishing to purchase a cooler other than an AIO. Let’s not generalize, let’s give people the facts, let’s inform people that there are indeed top tier air coolers that won’t make your motherboard disintegrate and actually are quiet, and actually do cool admirably.

[TechguyMaxC 516]

Martin, you're arguing for the sake of arguing now.  I'm not going to engage you in a semantic debate.  Yes, the literal definition of any is all or nothing.  In principle, if 99% of AIOs cool better than 99% of air coolers, which of us is MORE correct?  

[martin-w 3,235]

No,  I'm not arguing for the sake of it. That's not my style.
 
It's nothing to do with being "more correct". It's about generalizing and failing to mention that the top tier air coolers can compete with all but the best AIO coolers. It's also about misleading others with definitive statements that tower coolers "WILL" damage a motherboard. Properly designed, they won't and don't.
 
Anyone reading your comments would have been misled and potentially writhen off air coolers as an option. Hopefully after reading my objections they won't, and can thus make an informed decision.
 

if 99% of AIOs cool better than 99% of air coolers, which of us is MORE correct?

 
 
That's ridiculous, almost all AIO coolers don't cool better than almost all air coolers.


 

What do you mean by "when you eliminate the fan variable?" Do you mean run the product out of spec and drastically lower its performance?

 

 

 

If I could clarify, and it's actually easy to be honest.

 

When coolers are tested, it's generally with the fans they come with. Hence, if we compare an air cooler with low RPM quiet fans with something like the Kraken X60 with it's 98cfm, 2900 RPM high static pressure fans, then it's obvious the air cooler is at an unfair disadvantage.

 

Now install the Kraken's high RPM noisy fans on the air cooler and test again... what will you find? The air cooler performing better? Of course it will.

 

It's nothing to do with running any product "out of spec".

 

They did this on Linus Tech Tips, not sure if the article is still available, but the results were very interesting and highlighted how air coolers aren't as far behind AIO coolers as many believe.

 

AIO coolers have made great progress over the past few years, but we still aren't at the point where air coolers are now obsolete and not worthy of consideration for high end builds.

 

I'm a bit disappointed that we couldn't have remained civil to be honest rather than accusations of arguing for the sake of it. But there you go, forums are a minefield at the best of times. :wink:

[TechguyMaxC 516]

There's nothing else to say at this point.  Anyone capable of understanding the principles of thermodynamics and heat dissipation can see who is correct in this conversation.  Good day.

[martin-w 3,235]

Err... if you mean in terms of water having a much higher thermal conductivity than air, and thus "potentially" water cooling being superior, then yes course it is. No one has denied that.

Which is of course nothing to do with you over generalizing and failing to mention the top tier, quiet, efficient air coolers on the market, capable of competing with AIO coolers. And nothing to do with you, over generalizing and misleading others into believing that all tower coolers are motherboard killing ear splitting nightmares.
 
I exaggerate, but you get the picture. :wink:

Please remove the D15, and a number of other coolers, from your "not suitable for high end builds" list immediately. But then given how many people successfully run their high end systems with such air coolers, nicely overclocked, I think most will be aware of the unsuitability for you banned list anyway.

 

[TechguyMaxC 516]

Can you find one or two air coolers (out of hundreds on the market) that can get you close to the performance of a comparably-priced AIO when configured as intended?  Sure.  I never said otherwise.  By no means does that invalidate the original principle, though.  If you artificially limit the performance of an AIO with low speed fans, of course you can make a mammoth air cooler surpass its performance.  But what does that matter?  It's a pointless exercise and all it does is confirm that high density radiators need more static pressure to dissipate heat.  This is a known element of the design philosophy of water cooling products currently in the market.  Alternatively, if any water cooling company wanted to create an AIO product that utilized a low fin density radiator or "fins per inch" (FPI), to pair it with low speed fans and match your air cooler's noise rating, they could do so.  No one wants to do this though because of the dimensions afforded by modern case design.  Such a design would require external radiator mounting or a new class of cases.  Your air cooler has the advantage of being able to occupy space within the central compartment of the case, and is offered a larger footprint than that which can be utilized by a top or rear-mounted radiator which could potentially intrude into the space of other system components.  Your own air cooler has to make a concession to this fact, by way of the raised shelf or cutout of the lower fins to accommodate the closest in-board memory slots on the motherboard.  

 

Anyway, you've admitted that water has a greater thermal conductivity than air, so it seems like this discussion is to be concluded, then.  

[martin-w 3,235]

Max, you're a very frustrating person to debate with.    Why don't you just admit that you made a generalized statement and failed to point out to the OP and anyone else reading this thread, that the D15 along with other top tier air coolers aren't noisy, won't damage the motherboard and compete within an acceptable margin of AIO coolers and are indeed suitable for high end builds?

 

Why don't you admit that you inadvertently implied that all AIO coolers, were air cooler beaters? 

 

Why don't you just admit your error, admit your omission? It's no big deal, it won't discredit you, we all miss out important info from time to time, no one is perfect.

 

Do you not see how, when someone makes a statement like you have, that it encourages others [who actually own an air cooler that is quieter than the majority of AIO's, that does perform within the top 5, does beat all of the lesser, smaller radiator design AIO's and has had first hand experience of zero motherboard warping] to correct your inaccurate statement???

 

And please don't say your weren't responding to the D15 specifically, when you actually quoted me and responded directly to that quote.

 

It's not an error that deserves post after post of wriggling out of trouble. No offence, but it's a bit frustrating.

 

All you had to say was... " Oh yes, thanks for that Martin, indeed, the D15 and one or two other air coolers are quiet and do score highly in the reviews. And indeed, they do beat the lesser AIO's".

[martin-w 3,235]

Can you find one or two air coolers (out of hundreds on the market) that can get you close to the performance of a comparably-priced AIO when configured as intended?  Sure.  I never said otherwise.

 

You said... " Even closed loop, off-the-shelf systems are better and quieter than any air cooler you can buy."

 

You referred to all closed loop sytems and then wiped out all air coolers with one foul swoop. With no mention of price points. 

 

You said better and quieter than any air cooler. Would you like me to give you a huge list of all those smaller radiator design AIO's, that the D15 and other top tier air coolers beat?

 

As I said... it's only the very best AIO's that beat the best air coolers. And when we consider my Kracken X60 fan scenario below, the margin is even smaller.

 

 

 

If you artificially limit the performance of an AIO with low speed fans, of course you can make a mammoth air cooler surpass its performance.  But what does that matter?  It's a pointless exercise and all it does is confirm that high density radiators need more static pressure to dissipate heat.

 

 

Read my previous post again, I think you missed it. The scenario was...

 

When coolers are tested, it's generally with the fans they come with. Hence, if we compare an air cooler with low RPM quiet fans with something like the Kraken X60 with it's 98cfm, 2900 RPM high static pressure fans, then it's obvious the air cooler is at an unfair disadvantage.

 

Now install the Kraken's high RPM noisy fans on the air cooler and test again... what will you find? The air cooler performing better? Of course it will.

 

You have it backwards.  :wink: No one is compromising your precious AIO.  :smile: 

 

 

Anyway, you've admitted that water has a greater thermal conductivity than air, so it seems like this discussion is to be concluded, then.

 

 

Of course it has! At 57, and after writing science fiction and studying the sciences for decades, and after more PC builds for myself and others than I can count, and along with pretty much all enthusiasts on this forum, I'm fully aware of that... but it's irrelevant!!!!

 

It's irrelevant because it's nothing to do with your inaccurate statement, that I've quoted so many times I'm blue in the face. 

 

I'll spell it out one more time...

 

1. You should have referred to the top performing AIO coolers, not AIO coolers in general [that includes the smaller rad, lesser designs that top air coolers beat easily]

 

2. You should not have referred to "all air coolers" when there's quite a few that perform admirably, in the top 5-10, and beat all but the very best AIO's.

 

3. You should not have generalized and made definitive statements regarding tower coolers damaging motherboards, when only one or two makes have had that issue, and the top tier air coolers don't have such an issue at all.

 

Your comments because they were off the cuff and badly worded were misleading.

 

Not wanting others who were considering air cooling to be misled...I corrected you.

[martin-w 3,235]

Since I am not overclocking (running @ 4GHz / no need to overclock), frames are over 100 now on my "ONE" Titan Black attached to two 42" HDTVs at a resolution of 3840x1080. Why would I want the additional cost AND maintenance involved in water cooling?... Been there / Done that...

 

Mike...really sorry how this thread has been hijacked. As you aren't overclocking, the NH-D15S may be over kill for you. I'm wondering if something like the NH-C14S might be more suitable?

[TechguyMaxC 516]

Max, you're a very frustrating person to debate with.    Why don't you just admit that you made a generalized statement and failed to point out to the OP and anyone else reading this thread, that the D15 along with other top tier air coolers aren't noisy, won't damage the motherboard and compete within an acceptable margin of AIO coolers and are indeed suitable for high end builds?

 

Why don't you admit that you inadvertently implied that all AIO coolers, were air cooler beaters? 

 

Why don't you just admit your error, admit your omission? It's no big deal, it won't discredit you, we all miss out important info from time to time, no one is perfect.

 

Do you not see how, when someone makes a statement like you have, that it encourages others [who actually own an air cooler that is quieter than the majority of AIO's, that does perform within the top 5, does beat all of the lesser, smaller radiator design AIO's and has had first hand experience of zero motherboard warping] to correct your inaccurate statement???

 

And please don't say your weren't responding to the D15 specifically, when you actually quoted me and responded directly to that quote.

 

It's not an error that deserves post after post of wriggling out of trouble. No offence, but it's a bit frustrating.

 

All you had to say was... " Oh yes, thanks for that Martin, indeed, the D15 and one or two other air coolers are quiet and do score highly in the reviews. And indeed, they do beat the lesser AIO's".

 

I don't know why you're still going on about this...  

[martin-w 3,235]

Your stubbornness.  :wink:

 

When you post a 290 word response you will find that it usually elicits a response from the other party.