Is there a wrong or right way to do this?

 

Checked a few videos online... and people do it differently.

Personal preference. My own preference is to choose a runway first, as this can help mitigate the threat of accidentally choosing the wrong runway transition. In a crew environment, though, chances are you're either both independently verifying the route, or reviewing it together as part of a briefing, so it really shouldn't matter. But I'm a fan of all the help I can get. ;-)

You bring up another question...

 

What is the difference between the transition under the stars v under the runway?

The STAR transition is where you leave the Interstate (route) and the Approach transition is the intersection you turn at to head down the street you park on.

Yup... But even before the approach transition, more and more STARS have varying routes after a certain fix, based on the landing runway. So if you choose the correct STAR but then the wrong runway, you'll be into a lateral deviation before you ever make it to the approach. Check out, say, the HAWKZ4 into KSEA. You'll see the route splits at LIINE, based on a north or south landing.

 

 

Is there a wrong or right way to do this?

 

Hi, Robert,

 

In the NGX and other advanced simulations, when you select the runway, the FMC will filter out STARs that don't fit with that runway.  So to me it makes sense always to pick the runway first.  The same thing applies to selecting SIDs.

 

 

Here are some more examples, from ATL, where the same STAR has different paths depending upon your runway selection.

 

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KATL/STAR/all/pdf

 

Mike

The STAR variations have out run the conventional FAA terminology. Just flew the KATL KOLTTI arrival last night coming in from KLAX. I picked up the arrival at MEM so MEM.KOLTTI was filed and flown but of course landing 09R so the FMS ends up with MEM.KOLTTI.09 as the variation, and is a good example of picking approach before arrival for ease of use.  Don't know what you call the 09R branch... it's not the transition.  I think the FAA should have assigned the arrival runway branches to the approach instead of the arrival then it would be simpley MEM.KOLTTI thence ILS09R KOLTTI transition but that's pretty logical so must not be practical (they'd have to modify two or more charts instead of one and the approaches would have transitions for multiple arrivals). This is pretty much how it's done in EuroControl from what I've seen.

 

 

I think the FAA should have assigned the arrival runway branches to the approach instead of the arrival then it would be simpley MEM.KOLTTI thence ILS09R KOLTTI transition but that's pretty logical so must not be practical (they'd have to modify two or more charts instead of one and the approaches would have transitions for multiple arrivals). This is pretty much how it's done in EuroControl from what I've seen.

 

Hi, Dan,

 

Looking at KOLTT1 and the approaches to 9R, the 9R branch of the STAR actually includes the first two waypoints of the 9R final approach, so there is actually overlap.  The same is true for 9L.  So for these two runways they could have ended the STAR at KOLTT and started the final approach with a KOLTT transition.

 

But all the other runways - 8L/R, 26 & 27 L/R, 28, have vectors between the end of the STAR and the beginning of the final approach.  So if they switched the STAR legs for all these  runways to final approaches beginning with a KOLTT transition, they would have had vectors in the middle of the final approach.  Of course  they could have introduced continuous final approach paths from KOLTT instead.  Without checking, seems to me all the departures from ATL involve continuous paths from takeoff to the end of the SID.

 

Mike

Runway first, then STAR/SID.

 

As stated above, by choosing the runway first you'll filter out procedures that don't apply to the selected runway. Additionally, outside of the US it's pretty common to have procedures that apply to specific runways (i.e. Compton 3F, 3G, 5J, 4K at EGLL for 27R, 27L, 9R and 9L, respectively.).

 

 

Is there a wrong or right way to do this?

 

Just to be clear - it's all a matter of preference.

 

Since we usually don't assign runways until pretty late in the game here in the States, I generally try selecting the STAR without a runway first.

 

 

Since we usually don't assign runways until pretty late in the game here in the States, I generally try selecting the STAR without a runway first.

 

Hi, Kyle,

 

Since I never do that, what does the FMC do when the runway is unknown (in the KOLTT1 ATL approach above, for example, where the paths differ a great deal after KOLTT)?

 

Thanks,

Mike

Hi, Kyle,

 

Since I never do that, what does the FMC do when the runway is unknown (in the KOLTT1 ATL approach above, for example, where the paths differ a great deal after KOLTT)?

 

Thanks,

Mike

The FMC displays all KOLTT choices and they all link to approaches so you either don't select the arrival or just pick one..... you are pretty sure which runway is going to be assigned based on your gate location and direction of flow.  Here, as elsewhere, the approaches use the outboard runways and departures inboard. I've always wondered what the arrival pages look like in the real aircraft, specifically how the navdata naming is different from NAVIGRAPH.  I have not looked at the raw DERS data lately to see how this is done.  Anyway.... skip or guess.

 

 

Since I never do that, what does the FMC do when the runway is unknown (in the KOLTT1 ATL approach above, for example, where the paths differ a great deal after KOLTT)?

 

It won't offer EXEC if you have runway/direction-dependent restrictions. ATL is pretty much all OPDs. IAD has a mix of them. The COATT, as an example, is one where it doesn't matter which runway you select:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1509/05100COATT.PDF

Runway first, then STAR/SID.

 

As stated above, by choosing the runway first you'll filter out procedures that don't apply to the selected runway. Additionally, outside of the US it's pretty common to have procedures that apply to specific runways (i.e. Compton 3F, 3G, 5J, 4K at EGLL for 27R, 27L, 9R and 9L, respectively.).

 

Correct and in such a case the SID will be Compton. ATC will determine the particular SID before take-off.

 

The Manual Air Traffice Services Part 1 means that the SID has to be put in the flight plan:

 

Non-Standard Routes

 

2.51 Any filed flight plan that specifies a non-standard route at aerodromes where SIDs are designated should be referred back to the originator for correction.

 

 

The FMC displays all KOLTT choices and they all link to approaches so you either don't select the arrival or just pick one..... you are pretty sure which runway is going to be assigned based on your gate location and direction of flow. Here, as elsewhere, the approaches use the outboard runways and departures inboard.

 

Hi, Dan,

 

That's what I do.  I use Active Sky Next and it will give me the wind direction.  Then I just pick my preferred outside runway at ATL, LAX, etc.  (if the NGX or smaller aircraft, I might choose 10 or 28 at ATL).

 

Mike