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Jayjay

Could someone please enlighten me about locked San Diego topic

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Hi all,

 

I am not american, so I was not born with endemic "lawyeritis" :smile:

The topic about LatinVFR SanDiego release has been recently locked.

From what I understood it is because somebody asked how to install the scenery into FSX-SE and he was told that it is illegal to do so because the product was not developed for FSX-SE.  I have successfully installed both Latin VFR San Diego and Utopia San Diego buildings into FSX-SE.  Many FSX addons were not specifically developed for FSX Steam Edition and most of us have installed them in FSX-SE.  Are we all outlaws for the U.S.A. legal system?

 

Jean-Jacques

 


Jean-Jacques Struyf

between EBBR and EBCI

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One word: EULA.  Some people don't take those paragraphs that appear at the beginning of installs seriously.  They blindly click through, not realizing what is legal or not.  AVSIM takes EULA's very seriously so discussions like what you pointed out were handled in the best interests of the community.

 

-Jim


Engage, research, inform and make your posts count! -Jim Morvay

Origin EON-17SLX - Under the hood: Intel Core i7 7700K at 4.2GHz (Base) 4.6GHz (overclock), nVidia GeForce GTX-1080 Pascal w/8gb vram, 32gb (2x16) Crucial 2400mhz RAM, 3840 x 2160 17.3" IPS w/G-SYNC, Samsung 950 EVO 256GB PCIe m.2 SSD (Primary), Samsung 850 EVO 500gb M.2 (Sim Drive), MS Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit

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Thank you Jim, but which EULA?  Latin VFR's or Utopia's limiting their add ons to FSX-MSE?  I have not seen/read any EULA from this two companies (does not mean that they do not exist though).

 

Jean-Jacques


Jean-Jacques Struyf

between EBBR and EBCI

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http://www.avsim.com/topic/399402-latinvfr-san-diego-released/?p=3299692
(Link to Jim's post)

Wouldn't the correct reply to CallsignRobin's question be
"This product's installer was not designed to work in FSX:SE, so you're not eligible to receive support from the developer if anything goes wrong during installation and use"
instead of
"THAT'S ILLEGAL"!


If installing add-ons designed for FSX:MS into FSX:SE is really considered illegal now, you may save yourself the trial, strap me right into the chair. and flick the switch without asking any questions. Maybe there'll be a documentary on the History Channel about me in a few years.
"The greatest ####### in history! Worse than ######! More ruthless than ######! Better dressed than ### #### ##! His life achievement - illegally installing gigabytes of add-ons that were not designed for the flight simulator version he used and liked. Tune in at 8pm EST!"



(Auto-censoring for bad words. Neat! Totally running with that on similar, non-auto-censored words. Replace the blanks at your convienience.)

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Surely the same applies to all the " Can I install XXXX into P3D ? " questions but there are plenty of topics on that . Are they all locked too ? Or merging VC's from one aircraft to another ( PAYware or FREEware ) ? That must be illegal too as they were not designed for that either . Where does it end ?

 

John

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Software developers should show you the EULA before your purchase if they want them takin seriously. If you browse through the EULA and not agree to the terms and conditions do you think that they will return your money. No they will just say sorry no refunds on downloaded material. But I understand that AVSIM is not the place to discuss this. They have to protect themselves.


 

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Seinfeld Quote of the Month:

"Course, it would have to be someone who hasn't heard the story before. Someone who is unencumbered by any emotional attachment. Someone whose heart is so dark, it cannot be swayed by pity, compassion, or human emotion of any kind"

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Barring any deep privacy breaches from shadow corporations or any country's government, what you do on your own computer is your business but blatantly advertising to others online about how to illegally do what you did on your own machine to benefit others in doing the same is what is at the heart of the argument, to which there is a simple answer and Jim Young clarified that.  AVSIM does not not promote nor condone such actions here on this site.

 

What part of that is still not understood?

 

-Jim


Software developers should show you the EULA before your purchase if they want them takin seriously. If you browse through the EULA and not agree to the terms and conditions do you think that they will return your money. No they will just say sorry no refunds on downloaded material. But I understand that AVSIM is not the place to discuss this. They have to protect themselves.

Good point.  99.9% of the time, you wind up being met with that EULA after you have paid for it and yes, while you have the rite of refusal, where does that leave the consumer IF they actually read, understood and made a decision once the EULA was presented to them.

 

-Jim


Engage, research, inform and make your posts count! -Jim Morvay

Origin EON-17SLX - Under the hood: Intel Core i7 7700K at 4.2GHz (Base) 4.6GHz (overclock), nVidia GeForce GTX-1080 Pascal w/8gb vram, 32gb (2x16) Crucial 2400mhz RAM, 3840 x 2160 17.3" IPS w/G-SYNC, Samsung 950 EVO 256GB PCIe m.2 SSD (Primary), Samsung 850 EVO 500gb M.2 (Sim Drive), MS Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit

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I totally respect EULA's.  I think it is the developer's right to limit the use of their software.  But my question was, where is written that Latin VFR's San Diego and Utopia's S.D. buildings do not want their sceneries to be used in FSX-SE????

 

Jean-Jacques


Jean-Jacques Struyf

between EBBR and EBCI

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I totally respect EULA's.  I think it is the developer's right to limit the use of their software.  But my question was, where is written that Latin VFR's San Diego and Utopia's S.D. buildings do not want their sceneries to be used in FSX-SE????

 

Jean-Jacques

I believe it may fall under the Intellectual Property Rights.

 

Still trying to figure out why this is still being discussed.  The above referenced link by Bjoern should be proof enough of AVSIM's tolerance, or lack thereof.

 

-Jim

 

EDIT:  Ok, i want to retract some of what I stated earlier because the root question dealt with mixing sceneries.  Since there isn't any paid re-distribution of the sceneries, then yes, where is the harm, but the flipside of the issue is about the advertisement of such, which some could construe as hacking.  If the EULA doesn't explicitly state that such that sceneries cannot be combined for use, then it's up to the consumer to make the call to do so on their own computer.  Support wouldn't be granted to those who do it for obvious reasons.

 

Let us not forget about Estonia's Migration Tool, which I believe is payware, so how do they get away with selling a product that allows consumers to port models from one sim to another?

 

-Jim


Engage, research, inform and make your posts count! -Jim Morvay

Origin EON-17SLX - Under the hood: Intel Core i7 7700K at 4.2GHz (Base) 4.6GHz (overclock), nVidia GeForce GTX-1080 Pascal w/8gb vram, 32gb (2x16) Crucial 2400mhz RAM, 3840 x 2160 17.3" IPS w/G-SYNC, Samsung 950 EVO 256GB PCIe m.2 SSD (Primary), Samsung 850 EVO 500gb M.2 (Sim Drive), MS Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit

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To the best of my understanding, the Steam Edition IS FSX. Dovetail holds a license from Microsoft to distribute the software online via Steam, and though DTG has been permitted to update the core software by fixing some long-standing bugs in the original FSX code - and has enhanced its performance on modern hardware by recompiling it with the latest Visual Studio development tools - it is still, fundamentally FSX. DTG's license from Microsoft prohibits them from adding any new features or functionality not found in the original disk-based FSX.

 

In fact, when installed on a "clean" computer - FSX-SE exactly emulates FSX in every detail, setting itself up with the exactly the same file and folder structure as the original program. I have many add-ons created for original FSX (long before FSX-SE came on the scene), that install and run under SE perfectly.

 

P3D is an entirely different matter - substantially altered and modified from the original Microdoft ESP code base, and sold by an independent company under very different licensing terms to end-users.

 

IMO it seems a bit of a stretch to declare that installing an FSX product into FSX-SE is "illegal". Even PMDG, who are as proactively protective of their legal rights as any vendor in the flight sim world, do not prohibit owners of legacy FSX products (like the MD-11 and 747 Version 1) from attempting to run those products in FSX-SE. Their only caveat is that they will not provide technical support if those legacy products do not run properly in SE.

 

I don't own any LatinVFR scenery, and have never read their EULA, but I see nothing on their point-of-sale web site that specifically prohibits the use of their products in FSX-SE. It simply does not mention SE at all - listing "FSX-SP2" as a technical requirement.


Jim Barrett

Licensed Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic, Avionics, Electrical & Air Data Systems Specialist. Qualified on: Falcon 900, CRJ-200, Dornier 328-100, Hawker 850XP and 1000, Lear 35, 45, 55 and 60, Gulfstream IV and 550, Embraer 135, Beech Premiere and 400A, MD-80.

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To the best of my understanding, the Steam Edition IS FSX.

I would guess that asking politely to the proper people would yield the correct answers.  take for instance, UK2000 Sceneries, the developer has explicitly stated on his forums that he doesn't mind, care or otherwise if people install the airports into FSX, FSX:SE or P3D.  As for support though, that's another story if airports intended for a specific sim are then installed into a sim not intended at the time of creation....makes sense.

 

-Jim


Engage, research, inform and make your posts count! -Jim Morvay

Origin EON-17SLX - Under the hood: Intel Core i7 7700K at 4.2GHz (Base) 4.6GHz (overclock), nVidia GeForce GTX-1080 Pascal w/8gb vram, 32gb (2x16) Crucial 2400mhz RAM, 3840 x 2160 17.3" IPS w/G-SYNC, Samsung 950 EVO 256GB PCIe m.2 SSD (Primary), Samsung 850 EVO 500gb M.2 (Sim Drive), MS Windows 10 Professional 64-Bit

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http://www.avsim.com/topic/399402-latinvfr-san-diego-released/?p=3299692

(Link to Jim's post)

 

Wouldn't the correct reply to CallsignRobin's question be

"This product's installer was not designed to work in FSX:SE, so you're not eligible to receive support from the developer if anything goes wrong during installation and use"

instead of

"THAT'S ILLEGAL"!

 

 

If installing add-ons designed for FSX:MS into FSX:SE is really considered illegal now, you may save yourself the trial, strap me right into the chair. and flick the switch without asking any questions. Maybe there'll be a documentary on the History Channel about me in a few years.

"The greatest ####### in history! Worse than ######! More ruthless than ######! Better dressed than ### #### ##! His life achievement - illegally installing gigabytes of add-ons that were not designed for the flight simulator version he used and liked. Tune in at 8pm EST!"

 

 

 

(Auto-censoring for bad words. Neat! Totally running with that on similar, non-auto-censored words. Replace the blanks at your convienience.)

I'm sorry and with due respect, but I think Jim went overboard here with stating installing an addon which was originally developed for FSX-MS (NOTE: for this particular addon LOOOOOOOOOOOONG before DTG even came into view and released FSX-SE) cannot be installed legally into FSX-SE.

FSX-SE is a stated and declared re-issue of FSX-MS with minor changes with respect to multiplayer functionality and STEAM DLC functioning and some minor bug fixes (things that were supposedly already lined up by MS for the never released SP3). The license for both FSX-SE and FSX-MS is very much the same and it boils down to "for entertainment only".

As stated above, on a clean install, FSX-SE behaves completely like FSX-MS and I have yet to find the addon that doesn't want to install in FSX-SE.

I highly doubt we can expect to have all developers that have at some point in the past 9 (!!) years developed an addon for FSX-MS adopting their EULA's to explicitly mention FSX-SE. Their EULA mention "FSX" regardless -MS or -SE.

Come to think of it; by Jim's definition; aren't we also allowed to install the freeware addon's in the AVSIM FSX library into FSX-SE?

Come on! If that's in fact what it comes down to, the legislation concerning EULA interpretation has really gone through the roof.

 

And before anyone mentions it; P3D is a totally other discussion. Different simulator, different purpose (training / professional simulating).

 

I'm sorry if I bothered anyone with this semi-rant, but I honestly think some people are going in way way WAY to deep into interpreting EULA's and how developers need to be protected (which is the primairy reason for having an EULA) from people who want to use their intellectual property in a way they did not intend or envision.

 

Disclaimer: English is not my native language, so please forgive any spelling or grammar errors.

 

 

EDIT: I just installed KSAN for the sake of this discussion and checked the EULA. It doesn't say a single word about which simulator you are allowed to install it in.

It says:

 
Licence Information 
Legal Information for LatinVFR software product:
 
 
 
The copyright to this package, scenery, textures, binary, textural and pictorial files remains held by the specific author(s).
 
 
Reverse engineering by decompilation or any other method is strictly forbidden. We (the authors of the package and its contents) retain full legal rights to protect the ownership and distribution of all contained with the product. 
 
No editing of any portion of the package is permitted. This includes the repainting of textures or removal or addition of anything to the package particularly where related to any distribution.
 
 
This document itself is to be covered by the legal statements here within and is not permitted to be altered or changed in any way especially such that the interpretation may be changed or diluted. 
 
In the first screen it states: LatinVFR installation KSAN for FSX/P3D v1.1. Hence it does not specify -MS or -SE.

Regards,

Frank van der Werff

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I'm with fwerff

 

Just because something isn't designed to run in another sim doesn't mean it's illegal. Even if it says in a EULA, not designed for XYZ sim - still not illegal to use it.


|Ryan Butterworth|

| i7 4790K@4.4GHz | 32GB RAM | EVGA GTX 1080Ti | ASUS Z97-Pro | 1TB 860 Evo | 500GB 840 Evo Win10 Pro | 1TB Samsung 7200rpm | Seasonic X750W |

 

 

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The answer to CallsignRobin's should have been this product's installer was not designed to work in FSX:SE and AVSIM  policy doesn't support any  work-rounds and then locked it.

 

Also, illegal means contrary to or forbidden by law. That includes contract law as well as criminal law. Breaching an EULA is illegal.


Gerry Howard

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Breaching an EULA is illegal.

So the question becomes, does the EULA for the specific products mentioned state that they are not to be used in FSX:SE.

 

Until someone proves that it/they do all the wanna be lawyers need to sit down and take a rest.


The best gift you can give your children is your time.

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