Takeoff / Landing procedures

[Nick Dobda 24]

All, a few "while I'm thinking about it" questions.

 

I realize there are many different ways to do what I am about to ask, and depending on who you ask, you'll probably get a different answer. But I appreciate when anyone has input, or shares how they do things, so here goes.

 

Takeoff - PreV1 forward pressure, V1, take off forward pressure and pull back, VR you'll be rotating and V2 your on your way.. In the cockpit you're following the F/D.

 

Question is on the next sequence... I'll probably have VNAV armed at this time. I'll turn to try and click on the AP master so I can allow the plane to take over the vertical & speed. Recently I've seen the AP not engaging. Clicking AP disengage bar on and off fixes the problem. I'm thinking this is because I have the realism setting on where the plane has to be stable in order to engage AP - does anyone know that this is indeed the case? If so, why does clicking the AP disengage on and off fix the problem?

 

[i'm going to hypothesize that while I'm clicking on the button, I've released back pressure on the yoke... therefore making it possible to engage the AP master.]

 

1) Is it enough - after your into the climb - to release back pressure on the yoke and THEN click the AP... will it engage? OR should I mess with the trim to get it stable before pressing AP? I'm thinking in the time it takes to fiddle with the trim and get it to be steady, I could have just released pressure and clicked the AP.

 

2) After clicking AP, I'd like to click on HDG to maintain the runway heading (or SID heading). Is this typical, or is it more typical to click right into LNAV? I plan on going to VATASIM someday, so I've been trying to get in the habit of using HDG cause I know ATC will be vectoring many times.

 

3) I've noticed many SID plates have you climb to an altitude and wait for clearance (usually says within ten minutes). This is find and dandy if you have ATC, but without, I don't know what to expect. So for practice I'd fly to the specified altitude, then pause for a few seconds, then continue the ascent. For you ATC simmers, do you usually get clearance before you hit the altitude specified in the plate, or to you usually hit the altitude and wait for clearance?  

Finally a curiosity question.. VATASIM, are there a lot of boneheads on there? As in kids and the such that go on there and don't know how to fly the plane - whether by accident (having good intentions just don't know the rules) or on purpose? Can you put something on your name to let people know that your a rookie and prone to mistakes?

 

[Nick Dobda 24]

http://hopper1.blogspot.com/2010/05/vatsim.html

 

Wow, is this a typical attitude of VATASIM ATC? I'm hoping not.

[downscc 1,327]

1) A/P in realistic engagement mode (you can change this) requires that you do not apply pressure to any axis during engagement.  The only time you use that bar is to stop a runaway A/P... it's not fixing your problem.  You problem will be fixed most likely by using pitch trim.

 

2) Depends on what you want to do. RNAV SIDs will usually be entirely flown in LNAV roll mode.

 

3) The expect further clearance on the chart has special meaning in IFR lost communications procedures.  Normally, you get an altitude as soon as you check in with departure or it was in your clearance.  No need to pause in the climb, ATC is very good getting you higher before you need to stop climb..... unless the departure actually has a segment with an altitude constraint (EGLL).

 

I've never tried VATSIM, but real world student pilots will let ATC know either in their VFR flight plan or on initial contact. It's always a good idea.

[kevinh 409]

If you've set takeoff stab trim correctly and followed the flight director guidance to V2+10 you should already be roughly in trim when you engage the AP. But if you aren't it's not good practice to simply let go of the column and engage AP. it's worth spending some time learning how to trim out so this is never a problem.

 

Using the AP disengage bar is not the normal way to disconnect the AP. Best to assign a button or key to the AP disconnect switch via the CDU options menu.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

1. Your assumption of releasing backpressure is likely correct, as Dan and Kevin have mentioned.
2. If you're flying a pilot nav SID, then you'd use LNAV. If you're on a hybrid or vectored SID, then use HDG SEL. If you're unfamiliar with those terms, see here (about 6:00 in, but you might find it helpful to watch the whole thing - I speak to the previously discussed DISCO issue in there as well).
3. Any controller will likely give you a higher level as soon as they determine that it is okay to do so. The instruction "expect filed altitude [X] minutes after departure" is simply there for lost communication procedures. Basically, you'd want to set the altitude as a limit on the MCP, but ATC will likely give a higher altitude on initial contact (or soon thereafter). If there's no ATC online, I usually set the MCP to about 10000 just to avoid an unnecessary level off. Keep in mind, though, that the reason those altitudes exist is that there may be arriving traffic at altitudes just above that (3000 is used at IAD, as an example, as arrival traffic is descending from 6000 to 4000 in an area near where departures must also fly).

 

 

 

Finally a curiosity question.. VATASIM, are there a lot of boneheads on there? As in kids and the such that go on there and don't know how to fly the plane - whether by accident (having good intentions just don't know the rules) or on purpose? Can you put something on your name to let people know that your a rookie and prone to mistakes?

 

As Dan mentioned, it's definitely encouraged that you give ATC a heads up that you're new. It's also recommended that you avoid events (where a number of VATSIM controllers log on, and a bunch of pilots log on and fly in/out of a particular area). These are high workload situations for both pilots and controllers, and a new pilot can really, really cause some big issues if they don't know what's going on. During the middle of the week, or a 'normal' evening on the weekends where it looks slow (or sounds slow on the radio) are great times to get a better handle on an online network.

 

I just read that whole blog post. It somewhat reminds me of something I would've written when I started controlling back in 2008, though with fewer uses of pejorative terms.

 

 

 

I do have to say that I can relate to his frustration. He does touch on some interesting points that I've even addressed over the years:

1. When a large number of us aviation folk (I'm assuming Dan and Kevin are included in this) got into Flight Sim, we were introduced to it in a time where it really didn't have that many bells and whistles. Heck, the aircraft in the real world really didn't either, and aviation use of GPS was more of a future concept at the time. That meant that getting into Flight Simming took a lot of work, and a lot of learning. This meant that the truly passionate and dedicated people were those you usually came across. Everyone else was filtered out because of how difficult it was.

    

   This was also reflected on VATSIM, since the clients used to get you onto the network were complex, and involved installing multiple pieces, configuring them, and troubleshooting for a while before you could get online.

    

   Now, as the author mentioned, just about anyone can buy FSX, install it, and go launching off with a plane that just about flies itself. Moreover, with simple clients like vPilot (a program I actually really like, don't get me wrong) you can literally just jump onto the network and cause issues with said plane that flies itself that said pilot doesn't know very much about. While that's a legitimate issue and a concern I've long held, I try to avoid being as dismissive as the author as that pilot may well want to know more, but didn't have the same barriers as we did. We (the "old timers") were forced to mature on our own back in the day (no Google for me, and the only way I learned how to navigate was with Jepp charts my neighbor gave me). Because of that, when we ("old timers") had the opportunity to interact with others, we had the advantage of having that previous barrier that forced us to learn. New people do not. There are few barriers. In some ways that's an advantage, and in others it really isn't. Frustrating? Absolutely. Worth a rant of that magnitude? Not quite, at least in my opinion. It's just how the times have changed. Learn to adapt and offer to help, move to a different network, or simply accept the hand you've been dealt.

    

2. Training for controllers with no requirements for pilots is another sticking point, but requiring that would potentially cripple the traffic levels. Then again, I know I'd fly more online if more controllers were on, and I have definitely cut a controlling session short in the past because I logged on, had several text only pilots, a number of clueless (some had excuses, being new) pilots, and one who was being abusive (both to me and one of the clueless/new pilots). If training helped to cut that down, then I'd control more, which I have a feeling would bring more pilots. It's not a one way issue, and it's not a simple one for sure.

    

   People often use the real world parallel as an example, and I mostly agree, but that doesn't cut out stupidity from the real world, either. Flying into IAD the other week, we had a controller instruct a 777 to line up and wait. Keep in mind that the 777 is usually flown by the more experienced crew pilots of an operator. The 777 crew then missed the takeoff/departure instruction, asked the controller to verify the departure heading, left the mic hot blocking the frequency in the process, asked the controller to verify something in their original clearance (the dep frequency), left the mic hot again, and then finally figured it all out and got their takeoff clearance (a second time). That boneheaded error occurred at a major international airport, with a crew from a relatively reputable carrier.

    

3. The rest of the points about ANC (aviate, navigate, communicate) are also valid, and I've even spoken those points out on frequency in an event because so many pilots were struggling with them. If a controller gives a command, they are expecting the action first, and then the readback as soon as possible (especially if using text to communicate). Since controlling is a highly time sensitive task, if the pilot takes a while to process the command, work up the confidence to press the mic key, slowly speak it all out, and only then go to execute the instruction, chances are that said pilot is now miles beyond the LOC centerline. This, as a controller, is frustrating because the pilot is now out of position and might assume that it was controller error. Additionally, now I have to issue more commands to either work the pilot back around, or correct the issue on the spot, while also trying to figure out that one person's unique level of response time. That much is frustrating, for sure.

    

   Additionally, frequency changes can be frustrating because I'd consider that one of the easier tasks for a pilot, but some routinely take forever to accomplish it. Meanwhile, the other controller is in your ear about a pilot he's not talking to in their airspace, asking what's going on, when you know you told the pilot to head over to the other frequency minutes ago.

Again, to be clear, the frustrations are things that just about every controller has had, or will have, but I don't think they were conveyed fairly. If nothing else, it's a good idea of what to try to be careful of.

[art5869 4]

I allways engage Vnav & Lnav after I alline with the center of the rwy. After takeoff passing 1400 ft AGL engage CMD A and this is all.

[Nick Dobda 24]

Thanks for the info all. Last night I trimmed out to follow the F/D, released all pressure and AP engaged just fine. Its a must have though to have a increase / decrease trim switch on the yoke. Fortunately I have one available.

 

As for VATSIM. I guess I wouldn't attempt it until I was fully confident I could perform any task thrown at me by a controller. I have a bit of "old school" in me from FS9 days navigating VOR to VOR, tuning the radios and rotating the bearings to get an idea where I was. I actually used maps copied from Rand McNally and drew the bearings from VOR to VOR and used a protractor and calculator to determine bearings. Plus ground school was my very first college class back when I considered becoming a pilot. Discovering ILS was the biggest epiphany for me though when FS98 released frequencies for all major airports in their documentation.  

I'll seek more info when I come to the point I'm ready for VATSIM (might be awhile, I'm pretty content doing it without for now). For now Ill try to stick to PMDG NGX questions in this forum.

 

Thanks again

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

As for VATSIM. I guess I wouldn't attempt it until I was fully confident I could perform any task thrown at me by a controller.

 

I wouldn't hold off that long, honestly. Part of learning how to cope with instructions like that is receiving them. The basics are all that's really necessary:

• Basic clearances (CRAFT - clearance, route, altitude, frequency, transponder code)
• Fly heading
• Climb/descend and maintain
• Maintain [at or above/below] [speed] [until point] - seldom heard outside of events (in the US, anyway)
• Approach clearances
• The ability to not have to autoland (though many, many people on the network are incapable of this)

[ALF1 15]

Very insightful posts Kyle.

[thibodba57 462]

The way Atlas trains us is to ARM our roll and pitch mode (LNAV or Blank, and VNAV) after your final performance data entry (V1, VR, V2).  So your FMA should read <BLANK>| TOGA | TOGA w/ LNAV | VNAV armed (in white).

 

When taking the runway stand the thrust levers up when stabilized press the TOGA switches.  Be quick about the TOGA button....if your slow you'll have to control power for a bit.  Normal takeoff, and above 250' AGL (this is a 747 number) Autopilot on.  Watch the magic happen.

 

50' above the Barometric snapshot LNAV engages.  400' VNAV engages.

 

As for HDG Sel your FMA should be TOGA with a blank underneath it as you DO NOT arm Hdg Sel for take off.  You just press the button when you want to leave TOGA (wings level) for a selected hdg.  Standard instrument departures this is 400'.

 

Now this is all based on what we do in the 747.  I have a hard time believing it can be much if any different in the 737 honestly.

[Nick Dobda 24]

Brian,

 

What does stand the thrust levers up mean? The throttle up procedure I had a question about, so your post kind of addressed it -

The normal procedure is to advance the levers to 40% N1... but N1 is a scale in reference to rotation of the low pressure shaft.. not necessarily the location of the throttles. So it seems (at least on my throttles) I could get to 40% N1 by advancing the throttles to 25% of full.. if that makes sense.

 

How far are you supposed to advance the throttles and monitor for stability on 40% N1 -  (in reference to 0% is all the way back, 100% is all the way up). Is it 40%? Is it less? It seems like I'll advance the throttles much less then 40% of the distance to full  and it'll spool up slowly, but then quickly advance past 40%... at which time I'll click TO/GA... that seems incorrect... seems I should have only advanced the throttle so that it spools UP TO 40 where it should stabilize... then click TO/GA?

 

Does the throttle position vary from takeoff to takeoff depending on weather conditions? Every flight I've ever been (as a passenger, duh)on the process is very quick, so either pilots are very good at advancing the levers directly to where N1 = 40, or they're just watching if the indicators are doing what they are supposed to and clicking on TO/GA as it passes 40 (like I've been doing).

 

BTW, I love this place, so informative and educational. I got to see how much time I've flown since I installed STEAM when I switched computers... 240 hours in 3 months - all in that downtime between kids to bed and I to bed.

 

Also can you expand on "you'll have to control power for a bit"? What does that mean?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

The normal procedure is to advance the levers to 40% N1

 

AKA - "Stand up the throttles."  :wink:

[skelsey 765]

 

 

How far are you supposed to advance the throttles and monitor for stability on 40% N1 -  (in reference to 0% is all the way back, 100% is all the way up). Is it 40%? Is it less? It seems like I'll advance the throttles much less then 40% of the distance to full  and it'll spool up slowly, but then quickly advance past 40%... at which time I'll click TO/GA... that seems incorrect... seems I should have only advanced the throttle so that it spools UP TO 40 where it should stabilize... then click TO/GA?

 

You want roughly 40% -- getting exactly 40.0% N1 is not in itself important, what is important is ensuring that the engines spool up and have a moment to stabilise, otherwise when you apply TO thrust you may experience uneven acceleration of the engines. Also -- probably less of an issue with modern electronically-controlled engines but would have been more of a problem with the old JT9s etc -- if one engine is lagging behind and you shove both thrust levers forward you might cause a compressor stall etc if you apply thrust too aggressively. As Kyle says, "standing them up" is the term used for this initial spooling up -- with practice you'll know roughly how far you need to advance the thrust levers initially!

 

Brian's point about engaging TOGA swiftly is because on the Jumbo (not sure about the NG) TOGA will only engage if you are below a certain speed (50kias rings a bell) -- so if you accelerate above that speed you won't get any response from the TOGA switches and will have to manually advance the thrust levers.

 

You wouldn't push the levers forward and then press TOGA -- you would select 40% ("stand them up") press TOGA and (in the real aircraft) the autothrottle servos would move the thrust levers to the appropriate position, which you would follow with your hand. In the simulator, I've always pressed TOGA then swiftly (before HOLD is annunciated) moved the hardware throttle(s) full forward to prevent any interference (I also only rest my hand very lightly on the throttle to avoid inducing any spikes as well).

[thibodba57 462]

 

 

What does stand the thrust levers up mean?

 

We don't do % of lever movement.  All percents are based on N1.  I didn't want to give a specific N1 because I'm not familiar with the CFM-56 at all.  On the CF6 (What we use on the whale) we spool N1 up to 70% N1 then press TOGA.  Stand them up is a generic term thrown around for spool them up.  As a physical reference it looks like you stood the thrust levels vertical.  Like they stood up. :-)

 

The reason I said be quick about using the TOGA switch is at 50kts the Autothrottle is inhibited until passing 400'.  This is in the actual aircraft...I'll have to try the sim to see if it works the same.  Giving all the problems I had trying to figure it out a couple years back I'm guessing it is the same.  PMDG does an outstanding job of accurately simulating the real deal.  What I'm getting at is if your looking for this magical 40% and trying to be as accurate as possible, and you pass up 50KIAS and you haven't pressed TOGA...your going to have to set takeoff thrust yourself.  And then passing 400' cycle (turn off then on) the Autothrottle switch.  You  should be in VNav so that should re-engage the Autothrottle.  BTW, I don't remember if I mentioned this, but before you take the runway, Autothrottle on, verify LNAV, VNAV armed and check your MCP Altittude.  

 

I hope I'm not making this more confusing as I go.

[Nick Dobda 24]

Brian, Simon,

 

Things are perfectly clear. The normal procedures have the autothrottle armed as soon as the cockpit door is closed. It says I believe arm LNAV as needed... and arm VNAV. So not always both are armed.

 

Ok, it's getting too hyper technical. In general push the throttle up (but not full forward) so that N1 goes to around 40%,  when stable (which it will always will be in the sim with failures off) click TO/GA.

 

Thanks again all!