What Is Up With This Community?

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

Interesting take on cognitive nature, take me back to my days of a psych major (many moons ago).

 

The Dunning–Kruger effect is alive and well - everywhere!.

[JYW 2,977]

Very well versed and articulted post from the OP.   As a new fella here I've not seen much ill-intent but certainly a little - especially in the Flysimware Support Forum here.  I seen some attitudes there that shocked me, and I'm pretty thick-skinned.

 

Human behaviour is hard to control on forums such as this one and in my opinion practical tools and approaches can work best - in this regard the "ignore list" is your friend.    If you find someone's manner persistantly disagreeable, using the ignore list is a great way to remove that manner from your line of sight.

 

Keeping it all in perspective though, brilliant site, forum and community.

[Jim Young 2,356]

Very well versed and articulted post from the OP.   As a new fella here I've not seen much ill-intent but certainly a little - especially in the Flysimware Support Forum here.  I seen some attitudes there that shocked me, and I'm pretty thick-skinned.

 

Human behaviour is hard to control on forums such as this one and in my opinion practical tools and approaches can work best - in this regard the "ignore list" is your friend.    If you find someone's manner persistantly disagreeable, using the ignore list is a great way to remove that manner from your line of sight.

 

Keeping it all in perspective though, brilliant site, forum and community.

The Flysimware Support Forum is a commercial forum moderated by the developer.  It can sometimes get pretty brutal in commercial forums hosted here at AVSIM.  AVSIM does not moderate these forums except for extreme circumstances, like individuals using the forum to bust EULAs and pirating.  If you see a problem, please send a PM to the Moderator for those forums located in the bottom right of each forum.

 

Best regards,

[ViperPilot 81]

Hi Jim,

 

... Do people read PINNED topics, some do, but I'd guess most don't ... however, if I kept pointing folks to the PINNED topic would they get the idea?  After all, the idea is really for their benefit in get problem resolution (and or work around) faster and could avoid those triggers that set off the back and forth "debates".

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

Although some do read the 'Pinned' Topics, most do not, usually in an attempt to find the exact answer to their query.

 

Unfortunately, there are times where trying to guide people to find their answers from a Pinned Topic makes them (and other readers) think the person answering is giving them the old "RTFM" answer.

 

Alan  :smile:

[n4gix 4,947]

 

To be honest, I have seen some threads here that felt like they were escalating in emotion, and while I was itching to respond, I stopped and thought "you know, maybe a moderator will intervene".  I don't know if it ever happened, but by not taking part, I prevent things from getting worse.  This leads me to one last and very true statement, again, taken from my days in the military:

 

"If you have something to say, take it to the other room and if accommodations don't allow, you hold your tongue".

Jim, whenever you get the itch to respond, please do make use of the Report button. This will immediately raise a "flag" on every moderator's screen whenever they are on-line. This at least will increase the probability of a moderator taking action sooner rather than later.

 

 

[Guest]

 

Rob, you mentioned that "even your own post paints a sweeping brush of everyone in the community ("This community") ... did you really mean an implied everyone?"  No, I didn't mean everyone in a particular sense of the word, but since we are all a part of this community, don't you think we should take some sort of responsibility to perhaps intervene when someone gets out of hand?  Sure, we have moderators, but they aren't around 24/7 and since this community is available worldwide, that makes the playing field that much bigger.  I liken this random events that occur, people are thrust into a bad situation, two people go at it somewhere and the others are standing around, watching, recording it on their phones, but are they actually trying to stop the situation?  By not saying or doing anything, we are accepting the behavior and allowing it to happen as well as saying to the world that this is how it is here.

 

 

Hey Jim, we moderators and staff use the ToS as our guide ... "bad behavior" isn't in the ToS ... "abusive behavior" is in the ToS.  It's impossible for moderators to monitor every single topic/thread, as Bill pointed out, your best tool is to use the Report button if you feel someone is violating the ToS at AVSIM.

 

But we're not behavior police ... just as real world police officers aren't behavior police ... personally I prefer to provide meaningful and helpful information to others rather than to shake a behavior baton at someone ... only when they cross the thin blue line or hang out on the edge of the line (BTW some do this on purpose as it's their form of entertainment).  Best approach is to have a thick skin, don't take it personal, and if you think it's going to get your stress level up it's often best to NOT engage or respond ... and finally use the report feature IF you feel they have violated the "ToS".

 

Cheers, Rob.

[ClearedtoLand 149]

Interesting take on cognitive nature, take me back to my days of a psych major (many moons ago).

 

The Dunning–Kruger effect is alive and well - everywhere!.

Dunning-Kruger is indeed alive and kicking, and since that addition to the hymn sheet of cognitive despair, a great many other equally sad findings have been streaming in about how bad we are at reasoning. Whenever I am required to talk about how brilliantly illogical we evolved to be, I always try to reinforce the point that this stuff is hard wired into our brains, and when we behave in a contemptuous manner towards someone for their reasoning errors, we are not all that different from someone getting angry at someone for having only two legs ... We don't choose to be bad at thinking any more than we choose to have asynchronous modular processing of sensory information, we evolved that way. All of us, so we can safely pack away the superiority complexes.

 

And that's before you get to the truly bizarre stuff like the unconscious mind operating wholly outside of conscious control, which mostly is not really a problem, but it does make for scary implications when it offers your conscious mind any old piece of information at its disposal during arguments or discussions which are not going so well for the conscious mind. This results in the individual defending a point of view based on information they have never actually evaluated. Fun stuff really, right up to the point where one realises that ones opinions are based on mental processes which are thoroughly unreliable and that one possesses no internal mechanism for realising when one is being led astray by ones own mind.

 

And, of course, just to add to the mayhem, intelligence does not mitigate any of this, in fact, in a disturbingly large number of cases, higher intelligence aggrevates bad reasoning. If we can accept just how susceptible to error our thinking is, we might develop attitudes to the thoughts and actions of others which are more considered and considerate. We may also find our interactions with others to be less emotional and more constructive. But it is asking a lot. In the end it may be best to simply accept that bad behaviour will surface, and that when it surfaces, to remind ourselves of why it does show up so often. It can take the sting out of such behaviour, and can even add an air of comedy to it.

 

But I have gone way off topic ... Yet again.

[Jimm 437]

 ... and finally use the report feature IF you feel they have violated the "ToS".

 

Cheers, Rob.

Fair enough.

 

-Jim

[Guest]

 

Unfortunately, there are times where trying to guide people to find their answers from a Pinned Topic makes them (and other readers) think the person answering is giving them the old "RTFM" answer.

 

 

Hey Alan,

 

What I'm going to draft up and propose to AVSIM staff/mods for P3D is not a RTFM type of situation ... it's really giving them a guide on how to present a their problem/issue in a concise way such that it will avoid "interpretation" issues (and the debates/arguments that can trigger) and will get them a working answer sooner and most likely more accurate.  It's not an RTFM response ... it's to help people formulate their questions.

 

I think it's "fair" that responses to issues will be more effective if the initiator puts in the time to provide more concise information.  Example:

 

"I BOSD - why?"

 

Doesn't really say much and will most like trigger debates/arguments and 15 pages later the OP leaves in frustration.

 

vs.

 

"I BOSD - why?"

 

Here are my addons: XYZ, MNO, JYU, HDK, etc. etc.

Here is my hardware spec: 386SX - 20MB RAM

Here are my graphics settings: max, max, max, max, checked, checked, checked

Here are my tweaks: I replaced my DXGI with some other one I got from the internet 

Here is my OS: DOS 3.1

Here is my Dog: German Shepard with one blind eye

 

Armed with more information and not having to do the long and repetitive task of asking for information can narrow down the problem to a quick and efficient solution like "your dog's hair has clogged up your PC fans and the CPU is overheating"  It allows for more rapid "answer/solution" and leave less room to those argument triggers.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[Jimm 437]

Armed with more information and not having to do the long and repetitive task of asking for information can narrow down the problem to a quick and efficient solution like "your dog's hair has clogged up your PC fans and the CPU is overheating"  It allows for more rapid "answer/solution" and leave less room to those argument triggers.

That is a very good point and often the catalyst for some to go off and respond in an unkind way, but in defense of those who do tend to post with your first example, language barriers tend to hamper proper information.  No offense to those who are not fluent in the English language, they may be translating what they are trying to say or perhaps just trying to "fit in".  i may be way off base with that, but I think some folks here know what I am talking about, yet there are others who don't provide enough info to properly respond to.  I have come across a few folks like that recently, but I politely ask for more info, or if there are keywords or buzz words in their initial question, that can help ascertain what is wrong.

 

While it would be nice to have guidelines for submission drawn up, that would then have to be constrained to support-based forums.  PMDG, for example, only requires first and last names mentioned, but that is probably due to how their database functions in looking up customer orders, which is fine, but when you have a generalized or unofficial forum, it's an anything goes atmosphere.  I know I am probably going to be misunderstood again on what I said so let's just leave it where Rob responded at post #21.

 

I could really stir the pot by bringing up how easy it is for people to get off topic in a thread, which can get very frustrating to the OP...like posts #10 & #11. 

 

-Jim

Edited October 2, 2015 by n4gix
Removed excessive quote. Again.

[ViperPilot 81]

Rob,

 

I'm in total agreement with you; the more information someone can provide, the easier it'll be for someone to Reply, either with the right answer, or at least to point the questioner in the right direction. At the same time, it's incumbent on the responder(s) to make sure they read and understand the question before they answer!

 

Too many times I have seen someone pose a question, and have 15 Replies come back that either send the guy (or gal) down the totally wrong road, or give answers that have absolutely nothing to do with the original Query!

 

Sometimes, when someone replies to a question with a 'RTFM' or a snide Reply, I just want to post something to the effect of,

 

"Really? You can't take a minute and give the poor guy a proper answer, or at least be courteous and say I don't know? Is it THAT hard to do? Just answer the guy (gal). If you don't have anything to add to the conversation or just can't resist being an &@($*, then don't Reply in the 1st place!"

 

But, tact then takes over, and I refrain from doing so.

 

Alan 

[Jimm 437]

A lot of times, I like to just sit and do this when those types of conversations occur: 

 

-Jim

[ClearedtoLand 149]

Jim, am I right in thinking that what you are saying is that Rob's proposals will not fully address all the issue of some people responding in a hostile manner to people who do not articulate problems in a way, or the way, preferred by some others?

 

I agree with your comment about things like language barriers being obstacles to people conforming to a standard way of articulating problems, and I do think that in many instances, the hostile replies are without justification. By means of an example, I recall two people responding to someone's question by referring him to the manual, the fact that the way the question was phrased very clearly indicated that the person who posed the question was not proficient in English, and so the reference to the manual was next to useless. What was striking though was that neither of the two respondents recognised that the person was not a native English speaker, nor did they take the time to confirm this by looking at the location given by the person who posed the question, in this case, he was Brazilian, hence a native Portuguese speaker.

 

I think what Rob is going to suggest to AVSIM is a great contribution, but I think it will be of limited to use to those who do not speak English.

 

Too often, a hostile reply is not down to someone not having taken the time to search or phrase a question with sufficient detail, but down to the respondent not bothering to think through the possibilities that may be preventing the person who asked the question from living up to the required standards. That is not a failure on the part of the person asking the question, that is a failure on the part of the respondent. When did asking clarifying questions become a burden too far?

 

I am struggling to understand why so much consideration is given to the expectations of those few who, through failure in reasoning, respond in unnecessary ways to other people on here, while we place the burden for pleasing that minority on those who have transgressed in so far as not being as fluent in English, or as IT literate as those for whom such things are a cause for personal outrage. Do we no longer afford people the privilege of having to decide for themselves how to prioritise their lives? Has it come down to people agreeing, when joining AVSIM or purchasing sim related software, to prioritise their lives according to our demands or face our wrath?

 

By the way, if I have contributed to going off your topic, I apologise.

[Jimm 437]

 

By the way, if I have contributed to going off your topic, I apologise.

To be perfectly honest with you, I have no idea if I am understanding what you are saying.  This is not to say you are wrong in the way you are interpreting the statements made.

 

I believe it's all about clarity, for both the person posing the question as well as the responder, but it's the way the responders come off with, pardon the expression, a "holier than thou" attitude, which brings me back to my initial posting.  There are some that you can get a feeling from them that since they have been with AVSIM for X amount of years, or flaunt their impressive careers in the aviation industry or their experience flying simulators since the early 80's, that they can say whatever they want and they will always be right.  On top of that, you get "cronyism", where by a responder may make their statements, and immediately get backup up by X amount of others just because they know each other.  None of that, really helps the situation.  Heck, I have been guilty of asking the "stupid questions", and sure, I'll get snide remarks and have to weed through to find the answer, only because you get people who stray off topic, which that too doesn't help.

 

It's a general frustration that I have always seen AVSIM as a resource, and with that, being able to come here and either ask questions about problems I may have with a product, or have general questions about something related to the aviation world, and occasionally, help someone in need.

 

Maybe that clarifies things for you, or maybe I too got off topic.

 

-Jim

Edited October 2, 2015 by n4gix
Removed excessive quote. Again...

[Penz 45]

It's not an RTFM response ... it's to help people formulate their questions.

This is a rockin' idea Rob.

 

I worked in software support for a while, users more often than not need a bit of help with providing the necessary information to help solve their issue.

 

A wizard/guide would be very useful.