737ngx99

Awful AA in P3D v3

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I'm currently running only the built-in AA at 4x on a 2560x1600 monitor and it looks more than acceptable.  A very tiny bit of shimmer is present, but nothing objectionable.  In fact, if I could get the same sort of AA performance from XP, I'd be a happy camper indeed.  :wink:

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Hi

 

I've been struggling with the Anti Aliasing for a very long time in P3D v3. Its very shimmery and the planes looks "liny" and ugly. First i thought it was my 130$ monitor so i bought a QHD 2560x1440p IPS but that didn't solve the problem at all.

 

Have you guys any suggestions on whats the problem? I currently run a GTX 970 with i7 4790k @4.4Ghz.

 

 

Good day

 

Jacob

I just uninstalled v3.0 for one of those reasons.  I found that in comparison to the visual output of v2.4...v3.0 was quite terrible.  I don't need any outside AA processing with v2.4...  I don't know what they did, but I was quite disappointed with that visual aspect of v3.0.  I'm now debating with myself, whether to seek a refund within the 60 day envelope, and just stay with/enjoy v2.4 as my last P3D 'update'.  Thinking about it, anyway. I'll see what feedback we all get with v3.1 before I seek a refund.

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I'm curious if it's been confirmed that Prepar3D v.3.1 can effectively use the logical cores created by activating hyper-threading?  FSX does not use it and since this is a byproduct of FSX that obviously has been enhanced perhaps it can.  The Gatwick website regarding using the affinity mask indicates that Prepar3D version 2.x thru 3.x does use both the physical and logical cores but wondering if that is indeed fact. 

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I just uninstalled v3.0 for one of those reasons.  I found that in comparison to the visual output of v2.4...v3.0 was quite terrible.  I don't need any outside AA processing with v2.4...  I don't know what they did, but I was quite disappointed with that visual aspect of v3.0.

You are lucky you still have 2.4.  I made the mistake of deleting v2.4 once 2.5 came out.  P3D2.5 suffers shimmering and AA issue.  V3.0 and V3.1 is better than 2.5 but AA is still not good compared to FSX-SE.  Plus I believe V3.x employing the technique of unloading/loading scenery to improve VAS suffers the same slight stutter/pause as FSDT with their use of similar technique.  It's there if you pay attention.

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That's a lot better than suffering an OOM error.

Why can't we have both, stutter free, good visuals and VAS under control?  Ah, the trade-offs and the "techniques" around VAS limit <sighs>

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Why can't we have both, stutter free, good visuals and VAS under control?  Ah, the trade-offs and the "techniques" around VAS limit <sighs>

 

Cause we want a real flying environment with real clouds, rain, mist and fog. We want complex aircraft even that it is a simple Piper Cup with real flight dynamics and lastly we want to fly in and out mega hubs with real time traffic and real ATC. All these features turned up to the max on an old i7 2600 oc´ed 4.5 GHz with an GTX 580ti running the sim @ 60FPS.

 

If you do not want all these features i listed above then use the stock sim and you will be one happy camper seeing no OOM, no stutters and no FPS penalties. 

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Has anyone tried running MFAA instead? Not sure if it even works with P3D and what the performance hit is but if it did work it would mean doubling the set MSAA at a much lower cost.

 

MFAA did wonders for me in one or two titles and nothing in many others.

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Cause we want a real flying environment with real clouds, rain, mist and fog. We want complex aircraft even that it is a simple Piper Cup with real flight dynamics and lastly we want to fly in and out mega hubs with real time traffic and real ATC. All these features turned up to the max on an old i7 2600 oc´ed 4.5 GHz with an GTX 580ti running the sim @ 60FPS.
 
If you do not want all these features i listed above then use the stock sim and you will be one happy camper seeing no OOM, no stutters and no FPS penalties.

I am not sure I follow what you suggest.  I did say that there are trade-offs, I was wishing a sim where I can have it all, but there is no such thing.  Stutters are the number one killer factor for me. Luckily I found the settings in P3Dv3 that got rid of it:  no HDR, low traffic, no car traffics.

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I just did a test with 4 MSAA into MFAA and 4xSGSS.

 

Loaded up the 737 NGX at Flytampa LOWW and set thunderstorms.

 

GPU usage was around 70-80% most of the time and peaked once or twice at 99% when I looked at the clouds above. No stutters inside and outside and also did not notice any shimmering however I did not fly the plane above the clouds to test.

 

Seems promising.

 

Shanan

 

GTX 970 overclocked to 1350 core and 7500 mem

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I case you weren't aware, there is a bug with V3.1 DR (Dynamic Reflections) anything above "Low" setting will cause some AA issues ... this has been fixed for the next release.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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HDR can make ORBX scenery(they are not the only ones but a good example) and some aircraft full of white sparkles, it takes a lot of AA (thus low FPS) to get rid of (or just toggle off HDR in P3D). Some people blissfully ignore all the sparkles but it drives me nuts.

 

I suspect it is because of an improper way of texturing as default assets in P3D don't exhibit this BUT they don't have higher detail objects like handrails or radio antennas. I've seen complaints of this in other games too and it's almost always due to the texturing methods. (not sure if it's a bad normal map or lack of mipmap or the P3D engine itself)

 

The lazy repose is always the same from airport devs, it's your graphics driver or turn up AA or other nonsense...

 

LM will say it's a scenery dev issue and the addon devs will say it's a driver issue and everyone will just wash their hands of it as always.

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HDR can make ORBX scenery(they are not the only ones but a good example) and some aircraft full of white sparkles, it takes a lot of AA (thus low FPS) to get rid of (or just toggle off HDR in P3D). Some people blissfully ignore all the sparkles but it drives me nuts.

 

I suspect it is because of an improper way of texturing as default assets in P3D don't exhibit this BUT they don't have higher detail objects like handrails or radio antennas. I've seen complaints of this in other games too and it's almost always due to the texturing methods. (not sure if it's a bad normal map or lack of mipmap or the P3D engine itself)

 

The lazy repose is always the same from airport devs, it's your graphics driver or turn up AA or other nonsense...

 

LM will say it's a scenery dev issue and the addon devs will say it's a driver issue and everyone will just wash their hands of it as always.

 

Hi Steve,

 

could you give an example airport or post a screenie? I always fly with HDR enable and had never have problems in ORBX country or other add ons -freeware nor payware.

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I'm curious if it's been confirmed that Prepar3D v.3.1 can effectively use the logical cores created by activating hyper-threading?  FSX does not use it and since this is a byproduct of FSX that obviously has been enhanced perhaps it can.  The Gatwick website regarding using the affinity mask indicates that Prepar3D version 2.x thru 3.x does use both the physical and logical cores but wondering if that is indeed fact.

P3D and FSX work slightly differently, but both utilise "Logical Processors" (LPs) in the same way, and can be thought of as working in the same manner with respect to CPU cores. They each count the number of Logical Processors available through the mask, and split into that many jobs. As the Logical Processor count reduces below four, these jobs combine in a particular way, otherwise they split into repeating jobs. Currently the sweet-spot is four jobs on the typical 4GHz CPU we have today, featuring four or more cores. Enabling "HyperThreading" (HT) improves the switching speed of the cores, but to do this the CPU presents each core as two Logical Processors (LPs) instead of one LP.

 

Trouble is, the sim does not understand that two LPs may reside on a single core with HT enabled, that is why we often see an "Affinity Mask" (AM) with only one LP unmasked per core. With HT=On we are presenting two LPs but we want the sim to only count one job per core.

 

The reason for that is, that if we start two identical maximum throughput jobs on one HT core, each will get 50% of the available throughput. When we organise an AM for the sim, we want to ensure we give a full core, or 100% throughput, where it is needed.

 

A typical AM for a 6 core would be 1360=(01,01,01,01,00,00), showing the first pair of LPs, of core zero, on the right. Be aware that enabling 5 or 6 LPs in this way will actually reduce background task performance in the sim and increase VAS use unnecessarily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regarding the AA, generally setting 4xMSAA in the P3D display settings is good with aircraft such as the B58. But other aircraft models like the A36 may not look properly anti-aliased with only this setting, especially when zooming out the view. In this case the infamous SGSSAA with NI can be added (in the same multiple as MSAA) to good effect but practically halving the fps on some GPUs.

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Hi Steve,

 

could you give an example airport or post a screenie? I always fly with HDR enable and had never have problems in ORBX country or other add ons -freeware nor payware.

 

 

 

Sure, this is an example at an ORBX airport. If I were to make it into a .jpg the dots would be removed due to compression. You will have to open with paint as a browser will display it in lower quality. 

 

PIC

 

This is with 8x AA and 16x AF - No external things were used like nvidia inspector.

 

Note: it's not fixed white spots. The objects shimmer all along the surfaces and it becomes way worse when the scene is in motion. The screenshot also degrades the quality.

 

I've heard it called many things in many threads over the years. "fireflies" ,"camera flashes", "sparkles" etc.,  another guy though it was from the headlights of the cars , but it's not.

 

A video showing this is in order so you can see the magnitude of it, I'll try to make one and see if youtube's compression filters it out as an artifact.

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ORBX airports drive me nuts. I love them, but yes they sparkle like nobody's business on my setup too. I always wondered if it was a mip mapping thing.

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I'm not sure I completely understand your explanation of how FSX and Prepard3d ver 3.1 differ, if indeed they do, on how they work with Hyper-Treading activated.  According to Nick N who seems to be an acknowledged Guru on FSX he states in his FSX Bible that: "The real terrain 'guru' Adam from Aces as well as Phil Taylor specified years ago that FSX does not support any logical core threading (hyper thread).  The reason you SEE logical core activity in the Windows CPU monitor window is because the physical cache is used for each logical (hyper thread) core.  Logical core means there is no 'physical' hardware core but the hardware cache in use is there and FSX is DUMB so a thread is spawned due to the physical cache in use, but the data is never processed by FSX!".

 

In my experimenting with my dedicated flight simulator computer utilizing a Haswell i7 4790 processor with hyper threading on and off I never saw any indication of FSX improvement with hyper treading on and it fact it appeared to be detrimental. 

 

What prompted my question is at the Gatwick website dealing with how to calculate the proper Affinity Mask depending on what cores to use, there is a statement that says "Please be aware that P3D V2.x & V3.x by default will use all Cores and most importantly all Threads also on CPU's that have Hyper Threading enabled.  On machines with four or more cores, it will dedicate logical core 0 and thread 0 to rendering tasks.  To this end, it is suggested that the Expert Mode calculator be used to tune your P3D V2.x or V3.x Affinity Mask".  That statement suggested to me that Nick's claim that FSX cannot effectively use hyper threading is accurate and more importantly that P3D V2.x or V3.x can use it.  Since I've just recently installed P3D V3.1 on it's own dedicated SSD drive on my flight simulation computer this statement implies that even if I choose not to run an Affinity Mask I may want to activate hyper threading when I run my P3D simulator.  Thus the reason for my initial question, is the statement that later versions of P3D do in fact effectively use the additional logical cores created by activating hyper threading accurate regardless of whether one chooses to use an Affinity Mask?

 

With regard to the use of an Affinity Mask it would seem to me the only likely reason one would need to use one is if they have too many other programs or services running that are interfering with FSX or P3D operating effectively.  Giving up one or more cores to either FSX or P3D to use seems counter productive to me.  The better solution might be to use Task Manager to assign a program (TrackIR for example) to using just the last available core rather than taking cores away from the use of FSX or P3D.  I also find the use of Alacrity a very helpful initial program to use to shut down unnecessary programs and services prior to running FSX or P3D.

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I think you'll find that's just all old stuff nowadays. Here's what 4 v 5 cores HT on and off does for P3D. HT on 4 cores showing up better than 5 cores, and HT on better than HT disabled, P3D, 6 core 4GHz.Just need to know how to test it, and how it works:

P3D4v5core.jpg



Here's 4 v 5 jobs. Also note 116 outperforming 212, then a fifth core introduced at the bottom:

4v5jobs.jpg

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seconds. Understanding why 116 would outperform 212 should bring a measure of enlightenment for those interested.

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I'm not seeing dramatic differences between the samples you posted.  There are some subtle differences in the average FPS over time.  It appears that the 116 example doesn't have its average FPS dropping quite as much as the 212 example but the difference to my eye doesn't seem dramatic.  Can I assume these are being tested on P3D and if so what version and are you using the same flight or something else?

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We are fast reaching the point when attempting to compare FSX with P3D as to it's CPU usage, thread optimizations etc is an exercise in futility.

 

Folks - FSX is NOT P3D.  FSX is NOT ESP.  There are similarities but LM has made enough significant code changes to make comparison as to function useless.

 

Nick's references to FSX are correct - FOR FSX - but even he has acknowledged there have been significant changes in P3D, enough to make them quite different.

 

The comment "well, it works in FSX" is completely useless - about equal to saying "it works in Xplane" - Apples and oranges.

 

Vic

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Can I assume these are being tested on P3D and if so what version and are you using the same flight or something else?

That's the result from professional research carried out with a sophisticated test harness.

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