Too bad we can't have it all :)

[pracines 823]

I know all about NGIS.... I was there at the beginning, when there were about ten guys on the forum, and was one of the people who tested the original demo. I also was talking with Mr Borick both publicly and privately.

 

I believe I'm probably the first person to ever mention it on this forum! http://www.avsim.com/topic/467836-bumped-into-this-on-the-web/?hl=+next%20+generation%20+flight%20+symposium

 

Which eventually moved to this: http://www.avsim.com/topic/468499-next-generation-flight-simulator-sim-posium-is-now-open/

 

Thank you for the links. I was in error about the post being deleted. I knew that something annoyed me and it was because the topic was locked, not deleted.

 

It surly is a shame that the topic died and here we are months later and topics like "new version of KSFO released!" (what is that the 20th rendition of KSFO for FSX?) get so much attention and its all about ancient platforms that need to join the archives to reminisce occasionally.

[Baber20 1,438]

Why was that topic locked? This is so upsetting. NGIS team needs the support of the community. More people need to know about this sim. 

[Holdit 551]

And yet...when I browse the list of requested features I don't see any mention of icing, runway contamination, thermals or ridge lift. But I do see things like wanting to drive home from the airport.  :rolleyes:  With both X-plane and FSX/P3D, we already have sims in which the eye-candy surpasses what's available in professional simulators, yet the clamour is for more and more of it.  Most of the oohing and aahing over P3D seems to about the look of it rather than about what's going on under the bonnet compared to FSX ("hey, cool, cockpit shadows!").

 

When a new sim appears that really makes the simmer think about the things that pilots think about, and does so out of the box, then I'll feel like I'm looking at a big step forward...to what FLY! was offering 20 years ago...bah.

[HiFlyer 9,359]

When a new sim appears that really makes the simmer think about the things that pilots think about, and does so out of the box, then I'll feel like I'm looking at a big step forward...to what FLY! was offering 20 years ago...bah.

 

The problem is, that for a lot of reasons there'll likely never be such a sim, which explains why multiple companies are working off of the base of FSX/ESP instead, which leaves us pretty much cannibalizing microsoft's glorious past, into perpetuity.

 

Something completely new is needed to break the impasse, but the likelihood of that something new matching the depth of FSX "out of the box" after FSX has had ten years of development by multiple companies, is effectively nil.

 

Nor are there any likely White Knights to sink millions into such an effort to capture such a relatively tiny market. Even Dovetail would have to be insane not to go for a broader market, at least at first.

 

NGIS is a possibility to keep an eye on if only because......... what other options are there? So, for the same reason is Outerra (really sorry to hear you've given up Babar!) because they actually have working software out in the wild and are moving forward slowly but surely.

 

Then there is the great question mark. Dovetail.

 

And X-plane, of course.

 

For me, the operative word is..... patience.

[Holdit 551]

For me, the operative word is..... patience.

 

Oh I agree about the patience part, what I mean is that I'm not about to get all excited about P3D or X-Plane because as far as I can see, they're not bringing a huge amount to the table that we're not getting already. I'm still with FSX and am not about to make a big switch to P3D, for example, when I really don't see what the benefit is apart from "cool visual stuff".  The only significant change that I can see there is the modelling of sea states, and if I remember correctly, that involves a big performance hit if enabled. Not worth having to buy a new, expensive sim license and lot of add-ons all over again in order to essentially have the same game.

 

As for modelling the depth of FSX, if a sim is only going as deep as FSX, then I don't see much reason to buy it. And I'm not convinced that the scope of FSX can't be matched. As I said, FLY! did it about 20 years ago, and without the weight of MS behind it.

[LAdamson 240]

As a previous long time real pilot & plane owner............I don't really care about computerized icing, and runway conditions. Actually, I don't care about maintenance either, because I did so much of that in real life. More ridge lift wouldn't hurt, but I can always appreciate more eye candy.

I didn't fly as a regular daily job. It was never for a paycheck, and just a means to get somewhere. It was for all that eye candy of the western mountain/desert regions of the USA.  The more improvement in looks, the more I like the sim.  Of course, the plane needs to also seem reasonably real, handling wise. If that's off, I won't use it. 

[Anxu00 176]

As a previous long time real pilot & plane owner............I don't really care about computerized icing, and runway conditions. Actually, I don't care about maintenance either, because I did so much of that in real life. More ridge lift wouldn't hurt, but I can always appreciate more eye candy.

I didn't fly as a regular daily job. It was never for a paycheck, and just a means to get somewhere. It was for all that eye candy of the western mountain/desert regions of the USA.  The more improvement in looks, the more I like the sim.  Of course, the plane needs to also seem reasonably real, handling wise. If that's off, I won't use it. 

I am in your boat, but I have never own a real aircraft nor am a real world pilot.  I have been on many planes and love the experience of flying.  I also don't want a job, so all my expensive PMDG stuffs are now shelved, now that I have the virtual experience of being the virtual pilot on these for a number of flights.  I have XP and P3D, but I am now on P3D exclusively.  Other life priorities prevent me from following up on more than one sim.  The planes I use now are RealAir and Flight1.  Hopped in, take off, short, enjoyable flight, land, shut down and go have a real beer ;-)  I have many airport add-ons, but I have not re-installed them lately.  All  I have now are the basics: core sim, UTX, Orbx Regions, ASN, Rex4.  It's basic, but then I don't have to swear at OOM, low frame rate and stutters either, just take off and as the flight attendant says: enjoy the flight.  Who knows, in the future, when the computer will be twice as fast as my current rig, I will then add more eye candies, as of right now, I would like to eat a small cake rather than just look at a beautiful big cake that I can't eat.

 

Cheers and thanks for the thread.

[HiFlyer 9,359]

As for modelling the depth of FSX, if a sim is only going as deep as FSX, then I don't see much reason to buy it.

 

For me, the answer to that is that a lot has changed since FSX was new, and with today's hardware, almost inconceivably more can be done, even with less powerful hardware. As the title of this thread asks: Why can't we have both?

[pracines 823]

And yet...when I browse the list of requested features I don't see any mention of icing, runway contamination, thermals or ridge lift. But I do see things like wanting to drive home from the airport.  :rolleyes:  With both X-plane and FSX/P3D, we already have sims in which the eye-candy surpasses what's available in professional simulators, yet the clamour is for more and more of it.  Most of the oohing and aahing over P3D seems to about the look of it rather than about what's going on under the bonnet compared to FSX ("hey, cool, cockpit shadows!").

 

When a new sim appears that really makes the simmer think about the things that pilots think about, and does so out of the box, then I'll feel like I'm looking at a big step forward...to what FLY! was offering 20 years ago...bah.

 

I agree Paul, and this is why I'm fighting for those all important features under the hood. The NGiS features board ( https://trello.com/b/HPJrNcQM/features-voting-board ) has many things, and its being added to often. The intention of NGiS is to implement those features most requested (most votes) in version 1.0 and add additional features in subsequent versions. This is why it seems to me that now is a good time to be an active part of this project....NGiS needs us much more than we "need" them and they realize this. They have a vision but it is not so hard and fast that they ignore reasonable suggestions or kind critique. Realism is the vision and I think we all can agree on that.

 

Dovetail has the MS platform and a pretty solid history on which to build. They are asking for what we want, but there is no indication as to whether we are going to be faced with a DLC business model like MS Flight, or if they will exceed the features of FSX/P3D out of the box. All in all, they don't "need" us but the good thing is that they do seem to care very much about keeping flight simulation alive and well. FSX:SE has done well and has kept the dream alive.

 

AeroFly is on version 2 which is said to be released by the end of 2015, also be a full earth for the PC version but still with a limited flying area according to post #9 here:( http://www.ipacs.de/forum/showthread.php/7006-aerofly-FS-Development-Status ). I'm not interested in a planned limited flying area, because it will take way too long for the rest of the world to be developed and I already have the whole world in P3D V3.

 

XP is on version 10 and yes it has some very nice features, but lacks in so many as well. I think the problem with XP10 is it relies too much on 3rd party development and by doing so progresses too slowly.

 

FlightGear is another one developed, and yet the latest version (3.4) major enhancements involve still improving the basic platform, and fixing a slew of known bugs, so this is more like an ongoing beta test to me. I understand its free, but its been 18 years and while it has some nice features, it does not even come close to FSX in my opinion. We need something to exceed FSX by leaps and bounds.

 

I want to be clear that I'm not against 3rd party development, I have been very pleased with many add-ons. The thing I see is that our current simulator choices actually need add-ons to keep us interested. This need in turn results in lots of purchases, and in turn "stifles" (so to speak) a new flight simulator platform or even a new version, because many don't want to let go of what they invested in. I flew in my copy of FS4.0b with many add-ons just last week on an older PC system, so by me getting FS5.0 I still have not given up my FS4 and that's how its easy for me to long for a new version; I never have to give up what I currently have or had - none of us do!

 

I'm pushing the NGiS developers to get away from the "need" for add-ons like airport scenery or planes so that 3rd parties will have to go on to bigger and better things for the future. For example and/or hypothetically, if NGFS were to have an NGX quality plane as their 737 default, then PMDG would either improve on that or even better make a 787 with equal or likely greater realism. I want all NGFS airports to all have an interesting character about them, even the private farm strips ( similar to how the missions do in FSX e.g.. Midwest fly in - but much better), this way 3rd parties would have to improve on that, but the improvements would be far beyond what we have now, because NGFS default KSFO is better than anything we have now, and it does not cause the sim to crash OOM.

 

We have an opportunity to mold NGFS into a really great platform for 3rd parties to climb much higher than we ever thought possible. If we just settle for making NGFS a platform for 3rd parties to enhance by keeping things too basic with version 1.0 out of the box, then we will have stayed stagnant as we have been for many years. We must raise the bar. I'm doing just that on the NGiS forums and it would be great if I had lots of help because I cant think of everything, and many others have many much greater ideas then I have, and even have ideas as to how to implement features.     

 

Your ideas about the weather, I agree, are of the upmost importance. Eye candy is fine and dandy but without effect like { the actual weight of those passengers boarding the plane and the CG that constantly changes as they board that goes with the eye candy}, it is meaningless to have avatars boarding. So yes if the eye candy is there, we want the effect of that to matter. NGiS intends to make the effects optional for users who do not want to concern themselves with such details, so this can satisfy a broader audience. I, even this very moment, thought if cockpit shadows are there, then avionics cooling systems should be a part of that eye candy. As the sun beams down on instruments one can hear the cooling fans speed up ever so slightly and as needed....this is the detail that we can all have if we raise that bar. This way it remains a simulation more than a game, but it still can have the qualities (in the form of options)  of a game to attract many, a true win win situation.

 

I can see it now: NVidias home page with a very realistic flight simulator advertised, and a dedicated graphics driver specific to that flight simulator. A flight simulator can finally once again become king of all programs....<huge grin>   

[scotchegg 4,186]

I think in a couple of years time once VR settles in flightsimming is going to dramatically increase its profile.

 

I tried the NGIS demo and visually it's very nice (as expected) but comes in at a whopping 5GB install just for that small area. They're going to need some serious architectural changes if it's going to be a viable, all-world sim on people's hard drives.

[pracines 823]

I think in a couple of years time once VR settles in flightsimming is going to dramatically increase its profile.

 

I tried the NGIS demo and visually it's very nice (as expected) but comes in at a whopping 5GB install just for that small area. They're going to need some serious architectural changes if it's going to be a viable, all-world sim on people's hard drives.

 

I would not be so concerned about if its going to be viable, 4 Terabyte hard drives are on most basic gaming PC's these days. By next year or when NGFS is released 8 TB HD's will be likely a modest amount of HD space, likely to be at a reasonable price, and have an option for a SSD.

 

Would it not be awesome if NGFS required 4 TB of HD space just for the scenery- think of the detail....forget the past.

[Baber20 1,438]

This is not even an alpha version and it already looks pretty damn sweet. Was reading some of the features of Unigine 2.0 on their website and its one hell of an engine. Possibilities are endless.


 

 

[Baber20 1,438]

Did someone say god rays ?    

 

 

 

 

 

[pracines 823]

Nor are there any likely White Knights to sink millions into such an effort to capture such a relatively tiny market. Even Dovetail would have to be insane not to go for a broader market, at least at first.

 

Then there is the great question mark. Dovetail.

 

And X-plane, of course.

 

For me, the operative word is..... patience.

 

Maybe no white knights sinking millions, but its been reported that there are quite a few white knights dedicated to the development of NGFS (time is money).

 

I totally agree about the Dovetail question mark and how their flight sim will fair. Well we don't have too much longer to wait because I was told that we should see some information in January about this new DTG FS.

 

X-plane...I think there would have to be too many drastic changes to the basic XP planet (weather, seasons, major city recognition) to even compete. But your right, who knows what XP 11 holds.

 

Patience, is an interesting topic, and I have my take on it. I have patience with a child who spills their milk, but I will not have patience with political correctness to the point of blinding a group of people or an entire society like what is happening these days. PC is being mistaken as kindness or tolerance just like envy and jealousy are all mixed up. 

 

Tolerance has to end at some point if wrong is happening, 10+ years of the same old stuff is wrong, while all other software genre's leave us in the dust, so the time for patience for me is over. I'm so glad that the people at NGiS agree that now is not the time for patience, its time for action.  

[hjsmuc 393]

Does anyone know if this demo is still available somewhere? I searched for it but with no luck.