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Sky Prince

I want to fly realistic waypoints

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Hello sirs,

For quite some time now I have been flying either direct GPS or with very little waypoints generated by fsx/ASN. Currently, I'm enroute ymml-klax and immediately thought to myself, maybe it is time I started flying some more realistic waypoints to the destination airport.

I used skyvector to generate a plan YMML-KLAX and was given the following waypoints:

 DOSEL Y59 TESAT B450 NOBAR A579 VIRAR 21S74/M084F350  

 17S80  1255S17429W  11W72 0500S16559W

 04W65/M084F370  03N59  09N54 15N47  17N44  

 23N36/M083F390  28N30  EDSEL R577ELKEY  LAX

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am unaware of what some of those figures might mean. I understand that departing YMML I'd hit waypoint DOSEL first (SID), then on to jetway Y59 taking me to TESAT. Following this flow are waypoints linked to jetways, etc. until I came upon 21S74... what does this figure mean, please? I know that at this point I should be flying at mach .84 @ FL350. Is this correct? Please go through with me from DOSEL to LAX. I'd truly appreciate it.

Thank you!

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 DOSEL Y59 TESAT B450 NOBAR A579 VIRAR 21S74/M084F350  17S80  1255S17429W  11W72 0500S16559W  04W65/M084F370  03N59  09N54 15N47  17N44  23N36/M083F390  28N30  EDSEL R577ELKEY  LAX 

 

Please excuse my ignorance, but I am unaware of what some of those figures might mean. I understand that departing YMML I'd hit waypoint DOSEL first (SID), then on to jetway Y59 taking me to TESAT. Following this flow are waypoints linked to jetways, etc. until I came upon 21S74... what does this figure mean, please? I know that at this point I should be flying at mach .84 @ FL350. Is this correct? Please go through with me from DOSEL to LAX. I'd truly appreciate it.

 

out in the middle of the oceans there are not so many offical waypoints, instead those are grid coordinates of latitude and longitude.

 

21S74= 21degrees south, 174 east

17S80 =17 south, 180 east

1255S17429W  =12degres55 ,minutes south, 174 degrees 29min west

11W72 = south 11, 172 west

and so forth.

 

the last one  R577ELKEY i think the lack of space is a typo, R577 is the airway between EDSEL and ELKEY, and ELKEY is the last waypoint... which also happens to be a transition for the SADDE6 STAR (which you can look up on airnav for example to see the details of that)

 

your interpretation that the other numbers are speeds and altitudes is correct

 

cheers

-andy crosby

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Andy,

 

I wholeheartedly appreciate the time you took to explain this for my cause. Thank you!

 

So, just to make things clear:

 

21 degrees south, 174 degrees east

17 " south, 180 " east

 

1255S17429W= 12 degrees 55 minutes south 174 degrees 29 minutes west

 

11W72= south 11 degrees 172 degrees west

 

0500S16559W= 05 degrees 00 minutes south 165 degrees 59 minutes west

 

04W65/M084F370= at south 04 degrees 165 degrees west I should be at mach .84 @ FL370

 

03N59= south 03 degrees 159 degrees north

 

09N54= south 09 degrees 154 degrees north

 

15N47= south 15 degrees 147 " north

 

17N44= south 17 " 144 " north 

 

23N36/M083F390= south 23 " 136 " north mach .83 @ FL390

 

28N30= south 28 " 130 " north

 

Did I get those correct?

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03N59= south 03 degrees 159 degrees north

 

09N54= south 09 degrees 154 degrees north

 

15N47= south 15 degrees 147 " north

 

17N44= south 17 " 144 " north 

 

23N36/M083F390= south 23 " 136 " north mach .83 @ FL390

 

28N30= south 28 " 130 " north

 

Did I get those correct?

 

close to correct, actually the N means the latitude is north but the coordinates still follow latitude and longitude format .. this means there is always a north/south and always an east/west coordinate.

 

 17N44 = 17 north, 144west

 28N30 = 28 north, 130 west for example 

 

the 4W65 one is a little weird too, that is 4 south, 165 west, not sure why they changed the format for that one but i think it could also be written as 4S65. as for why they omit some digits like the leading 1 on the east/west coords, i don't really know the history or reason of that... . in the end, if you look on a map at the points, you can see the route makes sense. if your flight planner exports to the format for the FMC you are using it should import them correctly.

 

as far as the speed entries, i think it means, you will expect to change to that speed and altitude after that waypoint....  and i believe that those numbers are only filed to give ATC an idea of what you think your profile would be, in the end you would normally be asking for permission to do those changes and also might indicate an area where you would request for permission to do a step climb, but it may or may not be permitted depending on traffic etc. 

 

cheers

-andy crosby

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The weird format is to make shorthand "easier," and to fit it all into 5 digit space (antiquated requirement for some old units).

 

Pain to remember, so I usually just use the slightly longer format: N40W160.

 

Here's a summary of the ARINC 424 Lat/Lon format:

http://code7700.com/arinc_424_shorthand.html

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close to correct, actually the N means the latitude is north but the coordinates still follow latitude and longitude format .. this means there is always a north/south and always an east/west coordinate.

 

 17N44 = 17 north, 144west

 28N30 = 28 north, 130 west for example 

 

the 4W65 one is a little weird too, that is 4 south, 165 west, not sure why they changed the format for that one but i think it could also be written as 4S65. as for why they omit some digits like the leading 1 on the east/west coords, i don't really know the history or reason of that... . in the end, if you look on a map at the points, you can see the route makes sense. if your flight planner exports to the format for the FMC you are using it should import them correctly.

 

as far as the speed entries, i think it means, you will expect to change to that speed and altitude after that waypoint....  and i believe that those numbers are only filed to give ATC an idea of what you think your profile would be, in the end you would normally be asking for permission to do those changes and also might indicate an area where you would request for permission to do a step climb, but it may or may not be permitted depending on traffic etc. 

 

cheers

-andy crosby

Oh! I see. It is kind of confusing though, trying to work out these parameters. I thought it followed a trend.

The weird format is to make shorthand "easier," and to fit it all into 5 digit space (antiquated requirement for some old units).

Pain to remember, so I usually just use the slightly longer format: N40W160.

Here's a summary of the ARINC 424 Lat/Lon format:

http://code7700.com/arinc_424_shorthand.html

Oh, Scandinavian13 You...

 

Thanks a lot for this. It made things easier to understand. ☺

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Excuse me, please,

 

I was having a look at flightaware YMML-KLAX:

 

DCT COODA DCT FLATY DCT 20S162E 1916S16300E 17S166E 12S171E 07S176E M084F330 0221S18000E 00N178W 06N173W M084F350 08N171W 14N164W 17N160W DCT EBBER M084F370 DCT ELOYI R577 ETECO M084F390 R577 ELKEY N0481F390 C1318 LAX

 

From Andy's above explanation this route I found to be easily read:

 

20 degrees south 162 east

 

19 degrees 16 minutes south 163 degrees 00 minutes east

 

...

 

...

 

And, so on...

 

Scandinavian13 was right <3 ☺. The longer version is easier to remember.

 

Erm, what is N0481F390? And C1318? C1318 doesn't look like a STAR, and, I under FL390. Would N0481 be north 04 degrees 81 minutes (1h:21m)?

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Erm, what is N0481F390? And C1318? C1318 doesn't look like a STAR, and, I under FL390. Would N0481 be north 04 degrees 81 minutes (1h:21m)?

 

N0481 is 480 kNots at FL 390 - basically, it's a planned step climb in the plan.

 

C1318 is/was a high altitude airway.

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N0481 is 480 kNots at FL 390 - basically, it's a planned step climb in the plan.

 

C1318 is/was a high altitude airway.

Oh! So, it IS an airway! I wondered that initially but wanted to be sure.

 

As for the step climb, that's something I was never interested in doing, or rather, if I'm flying IFR and have got step climbs enabled I'll get ATC telling me off. Step climbs are a no no... In fact, I think I saw a post by you, Kyle, not forbidding step climbs, but to avoid ATC cussing us off, is to refrain from it.

 

Thank you, Kyle! <3 ☺ ... always there to help.

 

PS: TELL THOSE GUYS AT PMDG TO HURRY UP WITH THE 747v2. I'd like to fly it before the world ends. Lol!

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As for the step climb, that's something I was never interested in doing, or rather, if I'm flying IFR and have got step climbs enabled I'll get ATC telling me off. Step climbs are a no no... In fact, I think I saw a post by you, Kyle, not forbidding step climbs, but to avoid ATC cussing us off, is to refrain from it.

 

 

Well I guess you use the default FS ATC, which very limited and quite unaccurate. Not using step climb can be done in simulation but in real life in long hauls, it wouldn't be economically realistic as it is a huge waste of fuel. Step climbs represents a substantial save of fuel and therefore a save of money.

 

As you want to fly with realistic waypoints, I assume you tend to fly in a realistic way as well and as such, I would suggest using step climbs and forget about the default FS ATC if it doesn't let you do.

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Well I guess you use the default FS ATC, which very limited and quite unaccurate. Not using step climb can be done in simulation but in real life in long hauls, it wouldn't be economically realistic as it is a huge waste of fuel. Step climbs represents a substantial save of fuel and therefore a save of money.

I do use the default ATC to fly. I have PRO ATC, but there are some things I found to be very conflicting with the defaults, like not controlling AI traffics (not sensing other traffic around me), thus, my reasons for not flying with it. Maybe they've updated this product. I'll have a check...

 

I just hate the idea of the default ATC telling me to descend if not authorised to climb. I usually keep my eyes on the OPT ALT by increments of 1000. I'd request that climb from ATC until I reach final cruise.

 

I agree that on step climb I'd save fuel, but I also enjoy climbing to the OPT ALT manually (VNAV).

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Using steps of 1000ft may bring you to forbidding levels due to the airways parity (RVSM levels).

The normal steps are 2000ft in RVSM airspace (from FL290 up to FL410) with as a general rule: odd flight levels from 000° to 180° and even flight levels from 180° to 360° (it may differ above some countries like France, Spain and Italy where the RVSM rule is rather North / South).

 

If you set 2000ft steps in the FMC, the steps calculated with bring you at the best levels complying with the RVSM rule all along your route.

 

The OPT ALT given by the FMC doesn't always comply with the RVSM rules.

 

But this is a step further toward the realistic way of flying.

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Using steps of 1000ft may bring you to forbidding levels due to the airways parity (RVSM levels).

The normal steps are 2000ft in RVSM airspace (from FL290 up to FL410) with as a general rule: odd flight levels from 000° to 180° and even flight levels from 180° to 360° (it may differ above some countries like France, Spain and Italy where the RVSM rule is rather North / South).

 

If you set 2000ft steps in the FMC, the steps calculated with bring you at the best levels complying with the RVSM rule all along your route.

 

The OPT ALT given by the FMC doesn't always comply with the RVSM rules.

 

But this is a step further toward the realistic way of flying.

Thanks a lot for this! I overlooked that completely!

 

I'll be correcting these soon.

 

For the step climb I think I know what I'll do to keep the default ATC from annoying me. Though, in real life I'm sure I'd have the books thrown at me, like Kyle said. Ah well!

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I think there are a few things I didn't quite understand. Thank God for this forum. One can learn a great deal from just being here.

 

So, I've now noted that the OPT ALT doesn't alway's comply with the RVSM rules (although I always assumed that flying at OPT ALT displayed on the FMC should be conservative on fuel throughout the flight, provided that you monitor the climb). Kyle also said that if the aircraft was set to climb automatically, which I assumed from the step climb would be initiated to do, then one could end up having the books banging their heads into a migraine.

 

I've noted Kyle's response, "One of the best ways I've found to work step climbs is to roll the altitude selection up to the next altitude.  Look down at the FMC, and on the VNAV/CRZ page, click the LSK next to the STEP altitude.  This places the step altitude in the scratchpad, where you can then click the CRZ altitude's LSK to overwrite it.  Once the new altitude is in the CRZ spot, click EXEC and watch the automagic bring you up to the next altitude."

 

I fly the PMDG 747-400X (to be specific), and currently, I'm flying KLAX-YBBN. I followed Kyle's format above for the step climb. Before doing that though, I had to set the altitude in the MCP window; select the step climb lsk, copied into crz lsk and exec. I then clicked the MCP to initiate the climb, which it did. The altitude for that waypoint (or the next) is what I set in the MCP window, and in future flights will be the altitude for the next waypoint before clicking the MCP button (is there a name for this button?) to start the climb. Please let me know if this is the correct way to initiate a step climb in the PMDG 747-400X.

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I'm not sure I understand well Kyle's response. But it may be because it is out of it's context.

 

I haven't flown the 744 for a while now, but as far as I remember, I just rolled the altitude selection to the next altitude on the MCP and pressed the altitude button to trigger the climb.

 

I didn't bother with changing the altitude in the VNAV/CRZ page.

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So, I've now noted that the OPT ALT doesn't alway's comply with the RVSM rules (although I always assumed that flying at OPT ALT displayed on the FMC should be conservative on fuel throughout the flight, provided that you monitor the climb). Kyle also said that if the aircraft was set to climb automatically, which I assumed from the step climb would be initiated to do, then one could end up having the books banging their heads into a migraine.

 

Correct. This is why the 777 has the RVSM step option.

 

This, of course, gets chucked out  the window when on the NATs:

 

PART ONE OF THREE PARTS-

A RESNO 56/20 58/30 59/40 59/50 BOKTO
EAST LVLS NIL
WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390

 

Note how, from 310 through 390, ALL levels are used for westbound traffic.

 

As far as the autoclimbs, it isn't the books you're worried about, as much as the 747 above you flying on the NATs. Lateral separation on the NATs is done by time, which usually ends up being about 50ish miles. Vertical separation, as seen above, is only 1000'. So, if it worked out that the aircraft above you was slightly behind you, they wouldn't be visible to you (hidden by the roof of the flight deck), and you wouldn't be visible to them (hidden by the nose). Autoclimb for the step kicks in...

 

BAM.

 

Midair.

 

It's only an option in the PMDG SETUP> options of the 777 for the convenience of being able to walk away the computer on a very long flight.

 

 

I've noted Kyle's response, "One of the best ways I've found to work step climbs is to roll the altitude selection up to the next altitude.  Look down at the FMC, and on the VNAV/CRZ page, click the LSK next to the STEP altitude.  This places the step altitude in the scratchpad, where you can then click the CRZ altitude's LSK to overwrite it.  Once the new altitude is in the CRZ spot, click EXEC and watch the automagic bring you up to the next altitude."

 

I can't remember if I was referring to the 737 or the 747 there. Either way, this is only one of the possible ways, and isn't necessarily the right way (not that it's wrong, either). I believe you could just as easily roll the altitude up and then press the center of the knob without having to fuss with the FMC at all (which is what I think Romain was alluding to).

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I can't remember if I was referring to the 737 or the 747 there. Either way, this is only one of the possible ways, and isn't necessarily the right way (not that it's wrong, either). I believe you could just as easily roll the altitude up and then press the center of the knob without having to fuss with the FMC at all (which is what I think Romain was alluding to.

 

Good afternoon, Kyle ☺

 

I understand. So, how would you perform a step climb in the 747-400? I'm curious.

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I understand. So, how would you perform a step climb in the 747-400? I'm curious.

 

Since I'm already needing to adjust the MCP altitude, I might as well just hit ALT INT while my hand is right there. Even if I hit FL CH immediately after that, it's still fewer steps.

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I'm not sure I understand well Kyle's response. But it may be because it is out of it's context.

 

I haven't flown the 744 for a while now, but as far as I remember, I just rolled the altitude selection to the next altitude on the MCP and pressed the altitude button to trigger the climb.

 

I didn't bother with changing the altitude in the VNAV/CRZ page.

I see. And, this was all the time how you would performed the step climb in the 747-400? Is this considered the 'official' right way of all ways?

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Is this considered the 'official' right way of all ways?

 

There is no such thing...

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I see. And, this was all the time how you would performed the step climb in the 747-400? Is this considered the 'official' right way of all ways?

 

Well I was about to say I cannot answer that question as I'm not a real 747-400 pilot but Kyle beat me by 1 second and I think his answer is more accurate.

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Since I'm already needing to adjust the MCP altitude, I might as well just hit ALT INT while my hand is right there. Even if I hit FL CH immediately after that, it's still fewer steps.

I want to try this on my next flight, but I want to do it correctly.

 

So Kyle, you'd adjust the altitude on the MCP, and then push ALT IN IT, then FL CH to transition from one altitude to the next? Would you not bother to then copy the lsk from step into lsk into crz and exec?

 

Well I was about to say I cannot answer that question as I'm not a real 747-400 pilot but Kyle beat me by 1 second and I think his answer is more accurate.

The guy is awesome. Wish I had his experience. But, that's why it benefits to be here searching and asking questions. It's like a school. I learn equally from collecting information from pieces of post even if they aren't concise and direct.

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So Kyle, you'd adjust the altitude on the MCP, and then push ALT IN IT, then FL CH to transition from one altitude to the next? Would you not bother to then copy the lsk from step into lsk into crz and exec?

 

Pressing ALT INT automatically updates the appropriate FMC entries. Not hitting it ALT INT after updating the altitude, and simply hitting FL CH would not, however, as an example.

 

The reason for using FL CH (after hitting ALT INT) is that it modulates thrust a little better for altitude changes like that. At the new level, you can kick it back over to VNAV.

 

The guy is awesome. Wish I had his experience. But, that's why it benefits to be here searching and asking questions. It's like a school. I learn equally from collecting information from pieces of post even if they aren't concise and direct.

 

I've just been simming for forever and a decade, and have a ton of exposure to the FAA, ATC, and airline life. It's been a somewhat wandering, wayward path, but I've gotten a lot out of it.

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Pressing ALT INT automatically updates the appropriate FMC entries. Not hitting it ALT INT after updating the altitude, and simply hitting FL CH would not, however, as an example.

 

The reason for using FL CH (after hitting ALT INT) is that it modulates thrust a little better for altitude changes like that. At the new level, you can kick it back over to VNAV.

 

Going to setup a flight from YBBN-KLAX and will try this step climb procedure.

 

 

 

I've just been simming for forever and a decade, and have a ton of exposure to the FAA, ATC, and airline life. It's been a somewhat wandering, wayward path, but I've gotten a lot out of it.

... ☺... <3 ... a wealth of knowledge worth passing on.

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Pressing ALT INT automatically updates the appropriate FMC entries. Not hitting it ALT INT after updating the altitude, and simply hitting FL CH would not, however, as an example.

 

The reason for using FL CH (after hitting ALT INT) is that it modulates thrust a little better for altitude changes like that. At the new level, you can kick it back over to VNAV.

 

 

 

I've just been simming for forever and a decade, and have a ton of exposure to the FAA, ATC, and airline life. It's been a somewhat wandering, wayward path, but I've gotten a lot out of it.

Kyle, where is the ALT INT button? :-/ I see FL CH, but not ALT INT. Am I missing something?

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