I'm willing to say, that out of the 4 questions, we would be hard pressed to find consensus what is "must".

 

Well, yes, I agree. Can`t please everyone

 

RC4 does indeed offer European phraseology, but not consequently. More was planned for RC5, which sadly was never released.

Also Voxatc partially offers European phraeseology, including a CAA compliant Addon for the UK. I haven´t tried it though.

 

Unfortunately the future of Voxatc looks somewhat insecure. No news on their page for half a year, and no more response from the developer regarding P3D 3.0 since months. Hope it hasn´t been abandoned.

 

Mike

I like the idea. ...

 

- "Works in the US, but not in Europe, because the SID/STAR handling is completely opposite. (different SID/STAR based on weather, SID/STAR not include in the flight plan, ...)"

- "This might be common in US, but not in Europe"....

SID/STAR handling is not The same worldwide???

 

Chas

I used RC4 for a couple of years. I then tried Vox ATC, and really didn't like it . I then purchased Pro ATC X, and ... My point is, the only way you can really evaluate one ATC program over the other is to spend a few dollars, purchase it, and try flying with it and decide if it gives you what you want....

 

Unless the particular ATC program offers a "try before you buy situation", or a full refund after a reasonable tryout time, we're talking north of 50 bucks for each one of them and for someone on a fixed income that's not a trivial purchase .

 

AND...If VoxATC... Doesn't update to work with P3D V3.X, I'm out 60 bucks!

 

Chas

SID/STAR handling is not The same worldwide???

 

In my view, not even close

 

US has SIDs that connect to most runways and SID transitions are common. In the US, you include the SID/STAR in the flight plan because the SID/STAR doesn't have to change if the weather changes during the flight. 

 

In Europe, SIDs/STARs are mostly runway heading and exit point specific (and transitions are rare) => many more SIDs/STARs => you do not specify them in your flight plan, because the SID and STAR will change if the weather changes.

 

As an example, let's view this SID http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/LAS/DP/MCCARRAN+FOUR/pdf

 

In Europe, it wouldn't be a single SID with multiple transitions. There would be multiple SIDs ending at BEATTY (for each runway heading, named like BEATTYxxx), multiple SIDs ending at HECTOR (for each runway heading, named like HECTORxxx) and so on.

 

This is why you can't include "SID's common waypoints" in your FSX flight plan for RC4 for example (when flying in europe). The reason is that the if the winds change from north to south between planning and the flight, the only common waypoint is the STAR exit (everything in between the runway and SID exit will more than likely be completely different).

 

---

 

In the US, there are quite a few STARs end with vectoring either from the STAR exit or you should expect vectoring before STAR exit.

 

In Europe, vectoring away from the STAR does happen (if traffic allows), but STARs are designed to connect either directly to the approach or approach transition. Why? (AFAIK) To accommodate for continuous descent to save fuel and reduce noise.

 

These are just a few examples that I could come up from the top of my head. "Easy" for a human to understand. Not so easy for offline ATC to understand and handle.

From what I can read here : I am going to let you guys make these products more mature.  At this point the only active development tool is ProATC.  VoxATC doesn't work well in P3Dv3 (I tried the demo). 

 

I personally will never buy a product if I don't see regular updates by developer which includes support forums etc.  I don't care if it is the next best thing to slice bread.

 

I am eyeing ProATC as it matures and for the time being I am gonna save and get into Pilotedge (Vatsim is fine for me for now)  <--- I know these are completely different subject matter for this conversation.

I am going to let you guys make these products more mature.

 

This is where the main challenge is. As far as I know, most (if not all) offline ATC products in active development are single developer projects.

 

ATC is a very challenging thing to master. This is why it's still a job for the humans and not computers? My prediction is that we will not see the same level of maturity that we see in the aircrafts until someone has the money and time to start a big offline ATC project.

 

Until then, each ATC product needs to cover some corner the other products do not cover in order to do business. So if things do not change, it's about choosing what is must for you and what you can live without.

 

EDIT: Or get 3 ATC products like me and you have your bases quite well covered

MCE (Multi Crew Experience) interfaces with RC4 and gives you voice controlled ATC.

 

MCE also adds a co-pilot, who can handle ATC communications, if you want.

 

In addition, with MCE  you can also ask the co-pilot at adjust frequencies, adjust headings, adjust altitudes, etc.

 

Unfortunately, Pro-Atc-x does not interface with MCE nor, at this point as I understand, intend to interface with MCE...therefore, no voice commands when using Pro-ATC-X.

 

The combination of MCE and RC4 is very nice. I wish Pro-Atc-x would allow interfacing with MCE as I would purchase Pro-ATC for the dynamic SID/STAR to your flight plan.

It seems to me this should be also a valuable discussion for LM for future upgrades of P3D (including hopefully ATC). Thanks @hesynergy!

 

One thing LM could easily fix I assume is the new (for FAA) ICAO phraseology of "Line Up and Wait" rather than the now outdated "Position and Hold".

 

P.

It seems to me this should be also a valuable discussion for LM for future upgrades of P3D (including hopefully ATC). Thanks @hesynergy!

 

One thing LM could easily fix I assume is the new (for FAA) ICAO phraseology of "Line Up and Wait" rather than the now outdated "Position and Hold".

 

P.

 

Pro ATC uses Line up on runway. 

MCE (Multi Crew Experience) interfaces with RC4 and gives you voice controlled ATC.

 

The combination of MCE and RC4 is very nice. I wish Pro-Atc-x would allow interfacing with MCE as I would purchase Pro-ATC for the dynamic SID/STAR to your flight plan.

Downloading the MCE TRIAL as we speak...thanks Jeff, et al!

 

Gotta admit Pro-Atc looks pretty good...anyone beta tested the pilot2ATC v2?

 

Cheers,

 

Chas

As mentioned, "must" is very subjective. This is why I like the idea behind the original post. Here is an example list (based on my experience):

 

1) Generates it's own ATIS:

 

 - RC4: yes

 - VOX ATC: yes

 - ProATC: no

 

2) Assigns real world SIDs/STARs based on AIRAC (from Navigraph/Aerosoft):

 

 - RC4: no

 - VOX ATC: yes

 - ProATC: yes

 

3) Assigns real world transition levels automatically based on AIRAC (from Navigraph/Aerosoft):

 

 - RC4: no (can be manually entered)

 - VOX ATC: no

 - ProATC: yes

 

4) Uses FAA phraseology when flying in the US and uses ICAO phraseology when flying in Europe:

 

 - RC4: no (uses FAA globally)

 - VOX ATC: no

 - ProATC: no

 

I'm willing to say, that out of the 4 questions, we would be hard pressed to find consensus what is "must". It also shows that there isn't an ATC product that has all the corners covered. Hence the original question (at least I guess so).

Why no mention of PFE?

1) Generates it's own ATIS: Yes

2) Assigns real world SIDs/STARs based on AIRAC (from Navigraph/Aerosoft): It's not a fpl generating programme. So "you" assign real world SIDs/STARs based on AIRAC to PFE.

3) Assigns real world transition levels automatically based on AIRAC (from Navigraph/Aerosoft): Again it's not a fpl generating programme so "you" assign to PFE transition levels for centres, FAFs, FAPs and airports.

4) Uses FAA phraseology when flying in the US and uses ICAO phraseology when flying in Europe: Yes it most certainly does. It is fully ICAO compliant compared to ProATC which is not.

All of the ATC programmes have a few ragged edges. But, RC4 is finished with no further development. VOX ATC is fine if you enjoy talking to a computer. ProATC is ok for non-pilots who don't fly outside of FAA jurisdiction. PFE will always be updated. And it works with FS9, FSX P3D and even XPL.

Why no mention of PFE?

 

Because I don't own PFE => Not qualified to comment in any way or form.

 

-----

 

EDIT:

Hold on a second, I have to retract my previous comment. Here's why:

 

2) Assigns real world SIDs/STARs based on AIRAC (from Navigraph/Aerosoft): It's not a fpl generating programme. So "you" assign real world SIDs/STARs based on AIRAC to PFE.

 

Like I previously explained. This works only in the US, where you include SIDs/STARs in the flight plan. In Europe, you can't "assign" SIDs/STARs because SIDs/STARs are assigned by the ATC during the flight based on current weather.

 

(I seem to have a typo in the post I was referring to. please replace "common waypoint is the STAR exit" with "common waypoint is the SID exit")

 

 

3) Assigns real world transition levels automatically based on AIRAC (from Navigraph/Aerosoft): Again it's not a fpl generating programme so "you" assign to PFE transition levels for centres, FAFs, FAPs and airports.

 

In my opinion, transition levels have very little to do with "fpl generating". In Europe, each country can have it's own transition levels. Some countries even have airport specific transition levels.

 

For me, it would be a pain to have to go searching for airport, country and center specific transition levels as they tend to change between AIRAC cycles. This data is included in the AIRAC data => easy for computer programs to process. Hence the word "automatically" in the question.

 

ProATC is ok for non-pilots who don't fly outside of FAA jurisdiction.

 

Please do explain more (for anyone interested, ProATC has been developed Europe first and now starting to fine tune the FAA side of the equation).

Edited January 27, 201610 yr by Jarkko

MCE (Multi Crew Experience) interfaces with RC4 and gives you voice controlled ATC.

 

MCE also adds a co-pilot, who can handle ATC communications, if you want.

 

In addition, with MCE  you can also ask the co-pilot at adjust frequencies, adjust headings, adjust altitudes, etc.

 

Unfortunately, Pro-Atc-x does not interface with MCE nor, at this point as I understand, intend to interface with MCE...therefore, no voice commands when using Pro-ATC-X.

 

The combination of MCE and RC4 is very nice. I wish Pro-Atc-x would allow interfacing with MCE as I would purchase Pro-ATC for the dynamic SID/STAR to your flight plan.

Before I purchased Pro-ATC, I also thought that the absence of voice control would somehow destroy the immersion. However, that's absolutely not the case. In Pro-ATC the pilot non-flying will handle the radios and talk to ATC once airborne. And guess what. That's exactly how it works in real life. Talking to ATC while flying the plane is completely unrealistic. In Pro-ATC you only have to handle the ground communication using key presses which is ok. So from my point of view (and I had a completely different opinion before trying Pro-ATC) voice control is somewhat overrated.

 ProATC is ok for non-pilots who don't fly outside of FAA jurisdiction. PFE will always be updated. And it works with FS9, FSX P3D and even XPL.

 

This is the most absurd statement I have read in a long time. I guess I shouldn't like Pro ATC since I have been a licensed Pilot for over 40 years, learned in one of the busiest ATC areas of the US, South Florida, and Fly all over North America and Europe in the simulator using Pro ATC on every flight. 

There seems to be a lot of negativity around voxatc here been using for a couple of years now and in 3.1  . Sid Star handling if setup correctly and flight planning done correctly, simbrief is great for this, is excellent ,could do with an extra 10 miles or so for ATC to issue it to give me time to set up as I am slow but works well. Voice control works very well and coupled with MCE to handle some of the tasks like changing the radios is great  . It is at the moment a pain to get working in 3.1 but can be done but you do lose first office support no hardship with MCE. Instructions are in the AVsim voxatc forum and do require V2 installed at least did for me.

Have emailed the dev about 3.1 support and it is being worked on but now a month overdue not the only developer out there who still has not got full 3.1 support ie Captain Sim , tac pac .It has a steep learning curve to get working well but when it works well is very immersive . Also the VFR side works very well and adds to a vfr flight . MCE and RC I have not tried and sounds good but well out of date.  Without a free trial and voice support I will not be trying Pro ATC could not go back to pressing buttons like default ATC but I am sure parts of it are very good.

 

 

Have emailed the dev about 3.1 support and it is being worked on but now a month overdue not the only developer out there who still has not got full 3.1 support

 

Good to read that, looking forward to try it. Maybe the developer should not be that quiet though, there is neither a response in the Voxatc forum regarding 3.1 nor via their contact form on the Website.

 

Mike