PF3 ATC Program thoughts

[ThomasAH 61]

Ok, thanks. Think I will do with the default ATC. I mainly fly GA VFR but like to use approaches (if possible RNAV) which I select when I get near my destination. I do look at departure and arrival charts but I don't always follow them completely.

...

Er... isn't it the task of ATC to nag when you deviate from the path?

It is, but as you write yourself: You do not always want to follow the charts. Would you like to be constantly nagged about this by ATC in this game? How much leeway would a real-world ATC give? And if you are very serious about this, you would not deviate from the procedure anyway, so ATC would not have to nag you anyway

[Glynn 405]

 

 

Also noticed there is no chatter - is that due to it being a demo ?

 

How much Ai did you have around you ?, if there is no Ai in your "bubble" then PF3 has nothing to chatter with.

[Guest]

It is, but as you write yourself: You do not always want to follow the charts. Would you like to be constantly nagged about this by ATC in this game? How much leeway would a real-world ATC give? And if you are very serious about this, you would not deviate from the procedure anyway, so ATC would not have to nag you anyway

 

Fair point.  :wink: Though I rather had ATC nag me, if appropriate, for the sake of realism.

 

 

Having Navigraph data would be nice, but as PF3 only needs a fraction of it, this would add a layer of complexity that is not really needed.

 

 

Imho navigraph support would remove a layer of complexity users don't really need. The layer of complexity you mention is for the developer, certainly not for the user who could do without all that manually adding of information about SIDs and STARs. 

 

In the meantime I also read in the manual that 1. ATC gives instructions to AI only AFTERWARDS and not before the AI does something because PF3 doesn't actually control AI and only knows what the AI does AFTER they have done it (so AI is allowed to take off AFTER starting take off already etc.) and 2. ATC has no clue about mountains etc. so if you don't take care of this yourself they will vector you into a mountain without any problem. Combined with the things I mentioned earlier I wonder what this add-on actually does apart from sort of give you a canned chatter (since it only does what you tell it to do beforehand). 

 

But well, I will leave it at this: I will wait for some videos to appear and until then I don't think this is my kind of ATC add-on.

[HighTowers 1,434]

Im failing to see the benefit of this program negating Navdata and having it refer to SIDs and STARs as reference. While SIDs and STARs are used often they are not mandatory and can often be cancelled by ATC for more direct routes. The whole point of SIDs and STARs is to accommodate alot of traffic, so if the load is light there is no point to using those procedures. They would just get you down fast that would be appropriate as they see fit in the case of an arrival. That said though, if your flying into a major airport with alot of AI around, then those procedures would definitely be used and speed and alt restrictions adhered to to maintain flow and seperation. How is this program going to know all that? From what im seeing so far, is that you must put in the waypoints for the associated SID STAR along with its restrictions if any. Sounds tedious and time consuming.

 

Im all for another ATC program as it pushes each other to be better, but so far its ATC program A does voices very well but has inaccuracies or vice versa and Program B does the opposite. I use proatc, but sometimes its procedures, call signs and what not get annoying and i end up shutting it down. I hope it pans out well for pfe3. Certainly has potential but without a video, its hard to judge how really robust it is.

[ThomasAH 61]

In the meantime I also read in the manual that 1. ATC gives instructions to AI only AFTERWARDS and not before the AI does something because PF3 doesn't actually control AI and only knows what the AI does AFTER they have done it (so AI is allowed to take off AFTER starting take off already etc.) and 2. ATC has no clue about mountains etc. so if you don't take care of this yourself they will vector you into a mountain without any problem.

1. Yes, PF3 does not control the AI, except during taxi, where it stops aircraft if needed.

2. Yes, same as default ATC. But with PF3 you can set a minimum FAF for the airport, so it is easy to solve. I don't know how well the other addons use the available data to prevent this. But as in the real world: The pilot is responsible to not fly into a mountain

While SIDs and STARs are used often they are not mandatory and can often be cancelled by ATC for more direct routes. The whole point of SIDs and STARs is to accommodate alot of traffic, so if the load is light there is no point to using those procedures. They would just get you down fast that would be appropriate as they see fit in the case of an arrival.

You can request "Request Cleared To Final At Pilot's Discretion" from approach to simulate such low-traffic situations. But it might be interesting to have a chance to automatically get that in such situations.

 

How is this program going to know all that? From what im seeing so far, is that you must put in the waypoints for the associated SID STAR along with its restrictions if any. Sounds tedious and time consuming.

You don't have to enter the waypoints. Either let your flight planner do this and just tell PF3 "STAR starts here" or just don't include them in your flight plan and tell PF3 "I want to fly a STAR, but I don't tell you which" or "I want to fly a STAR, here are the STAR names for the runways". Speed restrictions are calculated automatically (you can increase the minimum speed if you want in advanced settings).

 

Im all for another ATC program as it pushes each other to be better, but so far its ATC program A does voices very well but has inaccuracies or vice versa and Program B does the opposite. I use proatc, but sometimes its procedures, call signs and what not get annoying and i end up shutting it down. I hope it pans out well for pfe3. Certainly has potential but without a video, its hard to judge how really robust it is.

Yes, none of the available ATC solutions (AI or human ATC) are perfect. PF3 just gives the most appropriate mix of features for me.

[vololiberista 205]

Also noticed there is no chatter - is that due to it being a demo ?

 

As has been said. It depends on how much AI you have running firstly. And then how much there is in your vacinity. For example from Hainan to Kai Tak (I have AI set to 70%). Initially one can hear one or two other a/c, then once over the South China Sea probably one or two or even nothing. But when you get close to Kai Tak all hell lets loose! I changed all the referrences to VHHH to VHHX!!

 

but without a video, its hard to judge how really robust it is.

I'm working on it/them. Hopefully one or more by the end of the week! Note: I'm not a professional youtuber lol.

[ashun 8]

If you select EDDF in the SID STAR page you can asign SIDs STARs to each runway. Specifically those that you have to use on your departure and/or for the direction you are arriving. No ATC is going to give you a STAR north of the airfield if you are arriving from the South. Make sure that on the SID STAR page you have checked SIDs Active and STARS active. On the waypoint adjustment page put ST at the start of the STAR. They very often have a common facility coming from a specific direction. So choose that facility. PF3 (not PFE3  :wink:  )  will asign you the correct STAR from where you are to the landing rwy.

 

What 'you' have to do is ensure your a/c navigation computer, INS or whatever you are using navigates you along that asigned STAR. I use the CIVA INS and if I'm landing at an airport where a change of STAR is likely I just programme in the changes. Surprisingly shock horror that's how it's done in the real world!! :smile:

 

If you have flown since then re try this and post an amplified description of what happened on the PF3 forum (see my sig). Dave will probably ask you to send your log files.

I have been using PFE delux for long and now PF3 and i know exactly how to configure flight plan. I do mark end of SID and beginning of STAR in waypoint adjustment page. I set FAF, transition altitude etc.

The issue is you can not configure SID or STAR waypoints in flight plans as u dont know which runway will be in use by the time you actually start taxing. ( ASN weather updates 15min and wind change will change runway in use)

 

AS i said , still SID is not a problem as you know which runway is in use and if there is change, then while taxing  you can alter FMC accordingly. While flying long haul when you are nearing last waypoint, you need to reconfigure FMC according to runway in use. The end point is same for any runway but depending on runway STAR changes. AS PF3 does not know STAR database, it will  vector you in the nearest direction to runway ( if STAR box is not ticked) which may conflict other ai traffic or terrain restrictions ( some times flying over city or airfield) or bring you to FAF at higher altitude. If STAR box is ticked ,it will ask you to fly entire approach at pilot discretion without any interference till you reach FAF.

In real life, most of the times aircraft fly STAR and depending on trafic load, ATC will truncate STAR and vector them to runway at appropriate altitude.

Like other ATC programs if PF3 can understand SID STAR NAVDATA,  even when vectoring, it would use speed or altitude constraints to bring aircraft to FAF at correct altitude.

Again i say PF3 is great program and handles ATC well but it has a chance to become gold standard if it can read SID and STARS.

[Guest]

It's odd that after all these years there still isn't a single ATC solution that 'does it all' and that does it realistically. In only fly in Europe and I would like ATC to tell me when I am getting near my destination if I have to fly a STAR (and if so, which one) or if I will be vectored. Or a combination of both. And all that with excellent voices, of course.  :wink: In short: we all want ATC like it is in the real world: seems it simply is extremely hard to get that done! In the meantime we simply have to pick the add-on (or default) which comes closest to what we want or need.

 

I do appreciate that PF3 offers a fully functional demo btw! My personal problem is that I don't like to install things of which I am not sure if I will keep and use them... Again, I am looking forward to the video's! Also because all those SIDs and STARs don't apply to 90% of my flights.  :wink: Hopefully there will be a VFR video too someday, showing how flight following etc. works.

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

You don't have to enter all of it!

Look at the PFE (PF3's interface is mostly the same for this) video on SIDs and STARs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qi6bZ5jVA0

If you want, you can stop at second 12 of this video. Then PF3 will call your SID "Delta Papa" (departure procedure) and your STAR "Sierra Tango". Fly whatever procedure you like from your charts/GPS/FMC.

 

I tried this video before it was posted - thank you but after trying that the connect to simulator button is grayed out - cant try it also my screenshot was in a first try - I re-downloaded the program and started fresh and used virtual co-pilot which does change freq very well but still no headings after loading flight plan even used a flight plan for original route reworked with no waypoint to close message so something else is wrong - as for chatter I had no ai on I was referring to generic chatter 

 

No biggie hopefully get it sorted out - thanks guys

[vololiberista 205]

I did a bad install of the main programme and had a similar problem. Perhaps that might be yours.

[KevinJH 12]

If you haven't already tried, Rich - pop over and register on the PF3 Support Forum, you'll probably get (even more) answers to your queries there fella  :wink:

 

http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

I did a bad install of the main programme and had a similar problem. Perhaps that might be yours.

 

Thanks Kevin been there to check it out

 

 

I did a bad install of the main programme and had a similar problem. Perhaps that might be yours.

 

Why cant I do the video tut - connect to flightsim is grayed out - what am I doing wrong - thanks

[dxk77 2]

There is no generic chatter. The chatter in PF3 is based on AI only.

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

There is no generic chatter. The chatter in PF3 is based on AI only.

 

Great no problem - why cant I do that video tut - see my post above - thanks

[xenonsk 129]

Richard, try set yours SID and STAR, save it and then reload flight plan.