PF3 ATC Program thoughts

[Glynn 405]

 

 

The voices in the video sound ridiculous. ProATC is ten times better in this regard.

 

No it's really not, ProATC's voice sets are very limited. and I doubt we will see the new voice recording tool any time soon.

PFE aka PF3 has 119 voice sets, many are very good indeed plus it has it's own Atis.

 

To be honest ProATC is in my opinion only of any use if you let the copilot handle the comms, it has a very nasty bug if you choose to use hardware radios which remains unfixed for many months now.

 

I have all the ATC programs and would rank them in this order.

 

Radar Contact

PFE/PF3

VoxATC

ProATC

 

I bought ProATc as we need more good options for ATC, any new program is worth supporting but the pace of development and bug fixing is glacial

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

 No not at all Rich, just being a VFR flight is all. I'm just curious as to how you might expect the flight to go, it is VFR after all

 

 

Thanks Dave for the detailed description - still getting my head around the atc payware - starting to get it with all the help in this looooong thread lol - I take full credit for that  :wink:

[Bobsk8 12,683]

No it's really not, ProATC's voice sets are very limited. and I doubt we will see the new voice recording tool any time soon.

PFE aka PF3 has 119 voice sets, many are very good indeed plus it has it's own Atis.

 

To be honest ProATC is in my opinion only of any use if you let the copilot handle the comms, it has a very nasty bug if you choose to use hardware radios which remains unfixed for many months now.

 

I have all the ATC programs and would rank them in this order.

 

Radar Contact

PFE/PF3

VoxATC

ProATC

 

I bought ProATc as we need more good options for ATC, any new program is worth supporting but the pace of development and bug fixing is glacial

 

 

I have the opposite opinion. I started using RC4 when it first was released, in fact even had dinner once in Atlanta with the creator. It was the best thing at the time, but I feel it is pretty dated now. Hasn't been updated in years, and probably never will be. I tried VOX ATC and didn't like it at all, too many errors and places where it would screw up. Then I got Pro ATC, and while it had some bugs with approach altitudes at first, the recent update, fixed 98% of that problem, and I would rate it number one at present. The additional ATC chatter that is available for a few dollars, really makes it nice to fly and sounding much more realistic. I like the moving map, and have it on a second monitor so i can view everything during my VA flights, headings, altitudes, AI traffic including their speed, altitude,  heading, departure and destination,  and call signs, . I like being able to get a route from any source, paste it into Pro ATC, and it instantly creates the flight plan, and when you fly it it automatically inserts any Sid and Stars applicable for the route you are flying.  All the data I would even need on a flight is right there on one screen. Couldn't ask for more, frankly. 

[Dave_YVR 973]

 

 

PF3 allows users to "slow down" the voices if they don't understand them at full speed with static etc (which is how real ATC is).

 

Static on the radios is certainly more common with UHF comms, but today's VHF is pretty clear even at longer range unless the aircraft has got a bad radio. If I heard comms like that I'd request they call back with a better radio.

[BrianW 124]

That is very strange because I listen to live ATC from major airports all over the US  almost daily , just to mention a few, Atlanta ( the nations busiest) , Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Detroit, LaGuardia, etc....  I hear "line up and wait"  used by the tower  all the time. By the way as I was writing this post, I was listening to Live ATC Atlanta Tower Runway 8R/26L tower on my Android phone and heard 3 aircraft in a row given "line up and wait". 

 

 

 

Of course you did because those airports have demonstrated the need for this type of operation.

 

MadDog is absolutely correct about FAA requirements being in place to use LUAW operations. See FAA order 7210.3Z if you want the details.

[Ralph_Zimmerman 1]

That is very strange because I listen to live ATC from major airports all over the US  almost daily , just to mention a few, Atlanta ( the nations busiest) , Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Detroit, LaGuardia, etc....  I hear "line up and wait"  used by the tower  all the time. By the way as I was writing this post, I was listening to Live ATC Atlanta Tower Runway 8R/26L tower on my Android phone and heard 3 aircraft in a row given "line up and wait". 

From the FAA PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSERY:

 

LINE UP AND WAIT (LUAW)− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to taxi onto the departure runway to line up and wait. It is not authorization for takeoff. It is used when takeoff clearance cannot immediately be issued because of traffic or other reasons.

(See CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF.)

 

CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF− ATC authorization for an aircraft to depart. It is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Blue Skies,

 

Ralph Zimmerman

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

Ray,

 

I was referring to real-world when talking about Towers issuing vectors (actually assigned headings would be a more accurate term).  In the U.S., many moderate activity airports don't even have SIDS or STARS.  At my first facility, KMGM, we would use headings all the time to expedite departures.  Got an F16 waiting to depart behind a Cherokee?  No problem, turn the Cherokee 15 degrees right or left and launch the F16 runway heading.  RC4 is reasonably accurate... but it is certainly not the end-all be-all of ATC (as no program ever will be).

I never fly in or out of those airports MD so would not be aware of the procedures. Seems reasonable enough though.

 

PF3 issuing Cleared for Takeoff from the hold short line is completely realistic.

 

MD

Surely that would depend on the airport. You can't use a rule like that for all airports around the world. Minor airfields seems okay but at any major airport "Line up and Wait" has got to be mandatory. If PF3 issues the take-off clearance whilst I'm holding short to 27L at Heathrow that would be a show-stopper for me I'm afraid.

From the FAA PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSERY:

 

LINE UP AND WAIT (LUAW)− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to taxi onto the departure runway to line up and wait. It is not authorization for takeoff. It is used when takeoff clearance cannot immediately be issued because of traffic or other reasons.

(See CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF.)

 

CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF− ATC authorization for an aircraft to depart. It is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Blue Skies,

 

Ralph Zimmerman

 

Totally agree Ralph with the emphasis that "cleared for take off" is the last instruction issued. No ambiguity whatsoever when you consider that English is not the chosen language of most international pilots.

[Jas451 1]

Installed the demo per instructions, load a flight plan and connect to FSX. I get a box pop up that tells me I'm connected, but when I tune to ATIS  frequency shown I get an error message that say's I'm not tuned to a facility?

[Guest]

Are you referring to a PFE video or a PF3 video? The voices do not sound digitised at all check my sig below.

PF3 allows users to "slow down" the voices if they don't understand them at full speed with static etc (which is how real ATC is). And that's probably what you heard.There are one or two American voice sets that don't sound so good dating back to PF2000 days. PF3 though has 119 voice sets and you can turn off voices you don't like.

Watch the vid below. I purposely included normal voices from the cabin, ground staff etc for comparison. I can't tell the difference!!!

I think some people are talking about totally different things here. The voices themselves in your video are indeed okay, they don't sound 'digitized' as such. The problem is with how specially call signs and numbers but also pieces of sentences are being glued together. That sounds utterly robotic and fake. I can clearly hear changes in the pitch of the voices in a single sentence that you will never ever hear in real life and which is completely unrealistic. It's like listening to a badly cut compilation.

 

To make a comparison with printed text: a normal voice is like the printed text in a novel: looks good and one font it used. It is well organized and tidy. PF3 voices are like those ransom notes which are created by cutting single letters in totally different fonts out of various newspapers and gluing them on a piece of paper to compose a message. The letters on their own may be fine but the combination is awful. Most people are talking about this gluing together of numbers and letters which sounds robotic. Default ATC 'sounds' like a well designed novel. PF3 sounds like a bad ransom note.

[ThomasAH 61]

Installed the demo per instructions, load a flight plan and connect to FSX. I get a box pop up that tells me I'm connected, but when I tune to ATIS  frequency shown I get an error message that say's I'm not tuned to a facility?

You do not need to talk (i.e. press a key) after tuning to ATIS, just wait and listen.

If you do not hear anything, make sure you use COM1 (if you want to use COM2, there is a corresponding setting in the advanced options)

If ATIS does not work, you might want to try contacting Clearance (or Ground if there is no Clearance at your airport) and press the hotkey 0 for an initial contact. If this works, you might have the wrong ATIS frequency. If it does not work, look at the error message you get in the FS window.

 

If you have further questions, you might want to ask them in the official support forum, so they don't get buried in this long thread.

 

Have fun!

[vololiberista 205]

Static on the radios is certainly more common with UHF comms, but today's VHF is pretty clear even at longer range unless the aircraft has got a bad radio. If I heard comms like that I'd request they call back with a better radio.

Well PF3 allows you to turn off the static

I never fly in or out of those airports MD so would not be aware of the procedures. Seems reasonable enough though.

 

Surely that would depend on the airport. You can't use a rule like that for all airports around the world. Minor airfields seems okay but at any major airport "Line up and Wait" has got to be mandatory. If PF3 issues the take-off clearance whilst I'm holding short to 27L at Heathrow that would be a show-stopper for me I'm afraid.

 

Totally agree Ralph with the emphasis that "cleared for take off" is the last instruction issued. No ambiguity whatsoever when you consider that English is not the chosen language of most international pilots.

Ray, the instruction in the video at LIMZ ie. take-off clearance is correct at that kind of airport and Take-off clearance is often given when an a/c announces ready for departure at the hold. It depends on the traffic. PF3 will even give clearance for "immediate" take-off as well.

In the case of LIMZ when there is no traffic the take-off clearance is given in that manner because the a/c has to taxi down the rwy and turn. sometimes in real life at LIMZ an a/c will get take-off clearance go down the rwy, turn and sit for ages doing their checks. I've seen it many times. It's not a busy airport. Those aforesaid a/c certainly would not be allowed to sit on the threshold at LIMF (Torino) it's too busy.

"Line-up and wait" on the other hand means there is a short delay almost always due to separation, wake turbulence etc. It's not mandatory. At Heathrow they would never get all the a/c away on time if every time they had to say "line-up and wait" for each and every departing a/c. ATC use a mixture of instructions to suit the occasion as does PF3.

PF3 has all those instructions built in and selects them according to traffic which is correct.

[Bobsk8 12,683]

From the FAA PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSERY:

 

LINE UP AND WAIT (LUAW)− Used by ATC to inform a pilot to taxi onto the departure runway to line up and wait. It is not authorization for takeoff. It is used when takeoff clearance cannot immediately be issued because of traffic or other reasons.

(See CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF.)

 

CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF− ATC authorization for an aircraft to depart. It is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Blue Skies,

 

Ralph Zimmerman

 

I know exactly what those two phrases mean, I learned them when I got my pilots licence almost 40 years ago. Of course line up and wait used to be called Position and hold. My point is that line up and wait is still commonly used at the larger airports, which in the sim world, I am flying in and out of all the time. Pro ATC also uses that phrase.   

[tf51d 284]

 

 

I think some people are talking about totally different things here. The voices themselves in your video are indeed okay, they don't sound 'digitized' as such. The problem is with how specially call signs and numbers but also pieces of sentences are being glued together. That sounds utterly robotic and fake. I can clearly hear changes in the pitch of the voices in a single sentence that you will never ever hear in real life and which is completely unrealistic. It's like listening to a badly cut compilation.

 

That's the nature of the beast any time you use actual recordings for voice. It's not bad when full sentences are used, but when you inject variables such as call signs, flight numbers, frequencies, airports, centers, etc.. your going to have different inflections, that can be noticed, to the point of annoying those more sensitive to picking them up. Me while I notice them, it don't really bother me. They aren't perfect, but beat computer generated speech by a long shot.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,954]

Well PF3 allows you to turn off the static

Ray, the instruction in the video at LIMZ ie. take-off clearance is correct at that kind of airport and Take-off clearance is often given when an a/c announces ready for departure at the hold. It depends on the traffic. PF3 will even give clearance for "immediate" take-off as well.

In the case of LIMZ when there is no traffic the take-off clearance is given in that manner because the a/c has to taxi down the rwy and turn. sometimes in real life at LIMZ an a/c will get take-off clearance go down the rwy, turn and sit for ages doing their checks. I've seen it many times.

"Line-up and wait" on the other hand means there is a short delay almost always due to separation, wake turbulence etc. It's not mandatory. At Heathrow they would never get all the a/c away on time if every time they had to say "line-up and wait" for each and every departing a/c.

 

Volo,

 

I'm not disputing the take-off clearance when holding short at quiet airports even if it means back-tracking as happened in that video.

 

The 'immediate' takeoff is good. We were working on that in RC5. An inbound had to be within 5 miles but not closer than 3 from memory. But the instruction was "line up and wait and be prepared for immediate departure". The word 'takeoff' was not used. That is reserved for takeoff clearance only.

 

I'm not sure in your final statement if you're talking about real-life or PF3. Is every Ai aircraft that approaches the hold at a major airport like EGLL  given take-off clearance when holding short? That would be a significant lack of realism surely?

[MadDog 353]

Ray,

 

PF3 uses an appropriate combination of Line Up and Wait and Cleared for Takeoff.  Departing LOWW this afternoon, PF3 told me to Line Up and Wait behind the Dash 8  departing in front of me.  I believe it may also do it behind landing aircraft... will need to double check that.

 

MD