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ProATC/X problem

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Did another flight and first of all: ProATC is totally awesome when it comes to ease of use. Simply entering the departure and destination is enough to get you going: you don't even have to think about procedures because ATC will assign them to you with name and all. (You CAN already see them during the planning phase but you don't have to.) During the last flight I got unexpected direct to's twice during departure which saved me some time. That was quite nice. But the approach went wrong again. But this may also have to do with the AIRAC not being in sync with the GTN 750 database. It's a pity the latter doesn't support Navigraph: I will have to wait until I can get a hold on the right database upgrade to match whavever Navigraph cycle I can get. In the end I closed ProATX and simply flew the assigned ILS myself. ProATC also was way too late with the TOD: I ended up some 4000 feet too high at a certain moment and had to dive down with 2000 f/m to make the assigned altitude at the last waypoint of the STAR. Seems like it doesn't read the f/m I set up in my Legacy profile...?

 

But well, there is more than enough to like about ProATC: as I said I like the very mimimal interface. You can interact with ATC simply by pressing numbers and without using a popup screen or panel (unless you want to ask something specific). And creating the flightplan has never been easier. Since I already own this one I might as well forget about the others.

 

Think I will buy the latest Navigraph AIRAC cycle now (1602) and hopefully I will get a hold on the same cycle for the GTN 750 soon: that might solve various problems I am having now.

 

Having one database in Pro ATC and another in your nav unit is like using maps with different data in them. Lot's of room for errors. 

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BOBSK8             MSFS 2020 ,    ,PMDG 737-600-800PMDG DC6 , A2A Comanche, Fenix A320,    Milviz C 310 ,  FSLTL  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    FSI Panel ,  ATC  by PF3  , A Pilots LIfe V2 ,  CLX PC , Auto FPS

 

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I ended up some 4000 feet too high at a certain moment and had to dive down with 2000 f/m to make the assigned altitude at the last waypoint of the STAR. Seems like it doesn't read the f/m I set up in my Legacy profile...?

 

Can you please post a log on the support forum (instructions under "Requesting Support"). Your account is now active and you have full access to the forums.

 

The profile for the aircraft in ProATC's config has to be conservative. If you enter -2400fpm as average descent rate (above FL100), you will have to dive like mad.

 

As for AIRAC, it's vital that the aircraft and ATC have the same AIRAC cycle. Otherwise the option is to have the ProATC moving map open and fly in heading mode to match they waypoints in the AIRAC version imported into ProATC.

 

EDIT: I was just informed that Navigraph might not have AIRAC for the GTN750. That would be a bit of a shame really.

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Thanks for making my account active, Jarkko! I immediately posted something there because I just bought Navigraph cycle 1602 for ProATC (after yet another approach going wrong) but can't get the AIRAC alignement done because of f5.csv missing. But anyway, the next time something goes wrong I will upload that report!

 

And yes, Navigraph won't work with the GTN 750 but I have access to GTN 750 updates (I currently use AIRAC 1601 for it) and within a month I expect to have the 1602 navdata so it will sync well with the 1602 Navigraph I just bought. Hopefully that (and solving that alignement problem) will solve everything.

 

BTW I set -700 f/m in my profile for as well above as below FL100 hoping that would would take care of the TOD problem but it didn't help. Maybe I should set it to -300 or so (a very slow descent) and then maybe ProATC will set TOD sooner (at which point I will of course use -700 anyway. :wink: )

 

EDIT

Holy cow, you are too fast, Jarkko! The problem with alignement is solved already! :smile:

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I use -800fpm below FL100 and -1300fpm above FL100. It gives me a very early descent (which I prefer), when flying with the A320 or B738.

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I use -800fpm below FL100 and -1300fpm above FL100. It gives me a very early descent (which I prefer), when flying with the A320 or B738.

Jarkko,

 

Do you mean you set these descent rates manually (in-flight) or can they be set as an option in in Pro-ATC?

 

regards,

Jan Aalders

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Do you mean you set these descent rates manually (in-flight) or can they be set as an option in in Pro-ATC?

 

These are are "set and forget" values that you set for your aircraft inside ProATC before the flight (Data > Aircraft).

 

In your flight plan, you then select which aircraft you are going to use for the flight. The values stored for the aircraft are then used to calculate the TOD for the flight.

 

I have create a single generic profile to use with A320 and B738 and another when flying with the MD-11.

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Jarkko,

 

Do you mean you set these descent rates manually (in-flight) or can they be set as an option in in Pro-ATC?

 

regards,

Jan Aalders

 

He most likely means going into the data menu in Pro ATC and aircraft. Pick the aircraft you are using, and edit aircraft and you can change things like descent rate, length of runway required etc. Then hit save. 


 

BOBSK8             MSFS 2020 ,    ,PMDG 737-600-800PMDG DC6 , A2A Comanche, Fenix A320,    Milviz C 310 ,  FSLTL  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    FSI Panel ,  ATC  by PF3  , A Pilots LIfe V2 ,  CLX PC , Auto FPS

 

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Tried another flight and this time it failed completely because the ProATC database and the GTN 750 database won't work together (EDDM LOWI). Luckily this isn't a problem in Norway where I usually fly so tomorrow I will do my first flight over there with the databases being as close as possible (ProATC 1602 and GTN 750 1601). You would presume the differences won't be too big... but I might be wrong. It will take a few weeks before I get the GTN 750 1602 database and only then I can tell if ProATC will work with the GTN 750...

 

And btw I got my orders to descent too late again (-700 in profile) and I barely made it with -1500. I will try later numbers later on but for now it seems I simply have to descent faster (f/m) than ProATC thinks I will.

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Some AIRACs cycles have little changes between them, while other AIRAC have huge changes. For example my local airports (EFHK) SID handling got changed completely this year (or was it last year). It has very little in common with the old version (and the change was not for the better). 

 

 

 


And btw I got my orders to descent too late again (-700 in profile) and I barely made it with -1500. I will try later numbers later on but for now it seems I simply have to descent faster (f/m) than ProATC thinks I will.

 

Those values are not exact (I personally use half of the value, that I see the aircraft's automation use).

 

Maybe better value over descent rate (feet per minute) would be angle of descent, but we will see if the name of the options will stay the same or change. The reason is, that the required descent rate is dependent on your ground speed. You have to vary your rate of descent (fpm) as your ground speed changes. 

Edited by Jarkko

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Well, I couldn't wait until tomorrow so I did a flight in my beloved Norway with my updated ProATC AIRAC 1602 and the GTN 750 at 1601. As was my experience up to now those databases don't give any problem over there, unlike with LOWI.

 

I am very happy to say that this flight went perfectly well from A to Z! No more missed waypointsL I closely watched what happened around the last waypoint of the route before the approach and all went well also (I think) because I made sure I was at the correct altitude at that time. (I left -700 ft p/m in the profile but actually used -1500 ft p/m and that worked well.) Could well be that previous problems were due to me still flying too high (and the AIRACs being to far apart). Just before that last waypoint I got cleared for the approach. Perfect. BTW At the start I asked for a direct to because the SID was pretty long and that worked like a charm too.

 

Few odd things though:

 

1. I got cleared for the ILS while the airport doesn't have an ILS and I was assigned an RNAV approach. I even got a ILS frequency from ATC...?!

 

2. ProATC didn't assign/select a transition for the approach but directed my to the middle IAF which would have brought me in a way too sharp angle to do the approach well... so I looked at the charts and choose my own approach transition. When I was flying towards it ATC nagged me once about having to change my heading (because I wasn't flying towards their IAF) but by that time I almost started to turn into that one again so it went well after all anyway. I notice ProATC quite often doesn't select approach transitions. I wonder why. Of course I can add them myself but I like it how I get surprised by ATC... :wink: During the planning I never look at the selected SID and STAR etc. but I click at the calculate button and only note the main waypoints when I have started the flight (in the bottom left corner of the screen).

 

3. As soon as I was cleared to intercept the approach I wasn't given altitude instructions anymore so I decided to descent as I saw fit. At that time I actually should have been descending already but I managed to do it anyway.

 

4. The official charts told me it was a LNAV approach but to my surprise the GTN 750 showed and LNAV+V approach. I don't understand where those differences come from...

 

Anyway, despite these little things all went well. I really like how I don't have to think and look about SID and STAR and approaches and how ATC assigns them all to me (I love that 'surprise'). Works very well and mighty quick: as I said before, I am up and running, well, flying, in no time. Much faster than when I used Plan-G and the GTN 750 planner to figure out SID and STAR etc.

 

I used to fly sort of VFR with procedures, which I followed just for fun, but it is a lot more fun flying IFR with proper ATC controlling me! It's also great that ProATX reads the ASN historic weather without any problems! Hopefully regular VFR support will be added in the future as well as better voices. (They are nice and better than PF3 but far from perfect, although the quality is extremely different between voices. The P2A voices are great but 1. a bit too perfect and 2. there aren't many and they are way too expensive to buy. For now I will stick with ProATC for sure!)

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Well, I couldn't wait until tomorrow so I did a flight in my beloved Norway with my updated ProATC AIRAC 1602 and the GTN 750 at 1601. As was my experience up to now those databases don't give any problem over there, unlike with LOWI.

 

I am very happy to say that this flight went perfectly well from A to Z! No more missed waypointsL I closely watched what happened around the last waypoint of the route before the approach and all went well also (I think) because I made sure I was at the correct altitude at that time. (I left -700 ft p/m in the profile but actually used -1500 ft p/m and that worked well.) Just before that last waypoint I got cleared for the approach. At the start I asked for a direct to because the SID was pretty long and that worked like a charm too.

 

Few odd things though:

 

1. I got cleared for the ILS while the airport doesn't have an ILS and I was assigned an RNAV approach. I even got a ILS frequency from ATC...?!

 

2. ProATC didn't assign/select a transition for the approach but directed my to the middle IAF which would have brought me in a way too sharp angle to do the approach well... so I looked at the charts and choose my own approach transition. When I was flying towards it ATC nagged me once about having to change my heading (because I wasn't flying towards their IAF) but by that time I almost started to turn into that one again so it went well after all anyway.

 

3. As soon as I was cleared to intercept the approach I wasn't given altitude instructions anymore so I decided to descent as I saw fit. At that time I actually should have been descending already but I managed to do it anyway.

 

4. The official charts told me it was a LNAV approach but to my surprise the GTN 750 showed and LNAV+V approach. I don't understand where those differences come from...

 

Anyway, despite these little things all went well. I really like how I don't have to think and look about SID and STAR and approaches and how ACT assigns them all to me (I love that 'surprise'). Works very well and mighty quick: as I said before, I am up and running, well, flying, in no time. Much faster than when I used Plan-G and the GTN 750 planner to figure out SID and STAR etc.

 

I used to fly sort of VFR with procedures, which I followed just for fun, but it is a lot more fun flying IFR with proper ATC controlling me! It's also great that ProATX reads the ASN historic weather without any problems! Hopefully regular VFR support will be added in the future as well as better voices. (They are nice and better than PF3 but far from perfect, although the quality is extremely different between voices.)

 

First, if you haven't already, get the add on ATC chatter. It makes a world of difference.  http://realatc.net/RealATCforPRO-ATCX.htm

 

Did you get an ILS freq or an LOC frequency? That info is obtained from the Airac that is in Pro ATC. What airport and runway were you flying into? 


 

BOBSK8             MSFS 2020 ,    ,PMDG 737-600-800PMDG DC6 , A2A Comanche, Fenix A320,    Milviz C 310 ,  FSLTL  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    FSI Panel ,  ATC  by PF3  , A Pilots LIfe V2 ,  CLX PC , Auto FPS

 

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Did you get an ILS freq or an LOC frequency? That info is obtained from the Airac that is in Pro ATC. What airport and runway were you flying into?

 

I was given an ILS freq. I was flying into ENHK (Hasvik) which as far as I can tell doesn't even have an ILS. Here is the approach that was assigned to me:

 

https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/current/aip/ad/enhk/EN_AD_2_ENHK_5-9_en.pdf?cachebust0615

 

I came in from the west and was told to go direct to HK401 but decided myself to go via HK403 (which was available as a transition for the approach in the GTN 750) to make the angle to HK404 less sharp. And as you can see the chart only shows LNAV while the GTN gave me LNAV+V and ProATC gave me an ILS freq. It's a funny world out there. :wink:

 

But ah well, it is the job of the pilot to make sure everything goes well: even ATC can make mistakes. :wink:

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I was given an ILS freq. I was flying into ENHK (Hasvik) which as far as I can tell doesn't even have an ILS. Here is the approach that was assigned to me:

 

https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/current/aip/ad/enhk/EN_AD_2_ENHK_5-9_en.pdf?cachebust0615

 

I came in from the west and was told to go direct to HK401 but decided myself to go via HK403 (which was available as a transition for the approach in the GTN 750) to make the angle to HK404 less sharp. And as you can see the chart only shows LNAV while the GTN gave me LNAV+V and ProATC gave me an ILS freq. It's a funny world out there. :wink:

 

But ah well, it is the job of the pilot to make sure everything goes well: even ATC can make mistakes. :wink:

 

According to the data in Pro ATC from Navigraph 1513 which is the one I have,   there are LOC approaches on rwy 29, and a bunch of other approaches. I see a freq listed of 111.5  That is probably the LOC freq. Look at the stars for that airport in the Pro ATC Data/airport approaches listing and see what you find. They are better in helping you with an issue like this on the Pro ATC forum. I don't fly into these small airports at all. 


 

BOBSK8             MSFS 2020 ,    ,PMDG 737-600-800PMDG DC6 , A2A Comanche, Fenix A320,    Milviz C 310 ,  FSLTL  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    FSI Panel ,  ATC  by PF3  , A Pilots LIfe V2 ,  CLX PC , Auto FPS

 

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I was given an ILS freq. I was flying into ENHK (Hasvik) which as far as I can tell doesn't even have an ILS. Here is the approach that was assigned to me:

 

https://www.ippc.no/norway_aip/current/aip/ad/enhk/EN_AD_2_ENHK_5-9_en.pdf?cachebust0615

 

I came in from the west and was told to go direct to HK401 but decided myself to go via HK403 (which was available as a transition for the approach in the GTN 750) to make the angle to HK404 less sharp. And as you can see the chart only shows LNAV while the GTN gave me LNAV+V and ProATC gave me an ILS freq. It's a funny world out there. :wink:

 

But ah well, it is the job of the pilot to make sure everything goes well: even ATC can make mistakes. :wink:

  

According to the data in Pro ATC from Navigraph 1513 which is the one I have,   there are LOC approaches on rwy 29, and a bunch of other approaches. I see a freq listed of 111.5  That is probably the LOC freq. Look at the stars for that airport in the Pro ATC Data/airport approaches listing and see what you find. They are better in helping you with an issue like this on the Pro ATC forum. I don't fly into these small airports at all.

 

This is one of the issues I have-a program relying on AIRAC will always leave room for discrepancy with what is hard coded in the sim-be it an ATC program or the FMC of an addon aircraft.

Jay

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   This is one of the issues I have-a program relying on AIRAC will always leave room for discrepancy with what is hard coded in the sim-be it an ATC program or the FMC of an addon aircraft.

Jay

 

 

I fly an average of 2 sometimes 3 VA flights almost every day. I have had zero problems with the Airbus, Q400, and PMDG 737 using navigraph, which they all have data from and are updated frequently. The main thing is after updating the Airac in Pro ATC, you run Makerunways and the align Pro ATC after running makerunways. This is all described in the documentation that comes with Pro ATC.  I also periodically update the navaids in P3D with this free program. http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

 

My VA, which is one of the largest in the world, uses current Airac as part of their Acars program, so when you file your flight plan before a flight everything is in perfect sync, Pro ATC- the Aircraft FMC- and Acars. Works perfectly every time. The reason the OP is having problems is he is apparently trying to fly  using two different data sets to navigate with. 


 

BOBSK8             MSFS 2020 ,    ,PMDG 737-600-800PMDG DC6 , A2A Comanche, Fenix A320,    Milviz C 310 ,  FSLTL  

TrackIR   Avliasoft EFB2    FSI Panel ,  ATC  by PF3  , A Pilots LIfe V2 ,  CLX PC , Auto FPS

 

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