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JBlack

Chaos in the Cockpit

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Okay I take your point. But I wouldn't mind betting that if your average flight-simmer was introduced to that cockpit situation and handed control, then he or she would probably 'naturally' opt to push forward on the stick instead of constantly pulling back hard on it.  I do realise that this is the classic question 'Could a flight-simmer' save a plane in an emergency?.' But I think in this case a simmer with a few years experience might well have saved the day as he/she would tend to have a more open mind and an instinctive grasp of the situation, albeit in an amateur capacity. Which sort of proves your point as well. 

 

I don't get why its every "simmers" fantasy, to take over an aircraft in distress. First off, if both pilots are incapacitated, you're not getting in the cockpit. You're just gunna die. Secondly, if one of the pilots is incapacitated, they're going to have another member of the crew sit in the seat, or a jump-seat pilot with actual flight experience. If that's not possible, then they're going to have to ask someone on board the aircraft if they're pilots. Every single non-rev flight I've been on, has one or two non-rev pilots commuting, so they're not going to pick an "expert simmer", over a trained pilot with actual experience. Simmers have never flown "seat-of-the-pants" before. It gets very stressful when things go south, and it will bring your skills to test. I have never been "stressed" flying a sim. However, having flown instrument approaches to just above minimums, with no autopilot, in a high-performance turbine aircraft, with a decent amount of crosswind, is very stressful. You have lives in your hands, and the people in the back are counting on you to do your job. The same goes for any type of situation, whether it be an approach, or an emergency situation. That's why its critical to ALWAYS be familiar how your aircraft flies, and to stay current on emergency procedures and memory items. It's very easy for some pilots to get complacent, which is why we're talking about this right now. It just really grinds my gears when I hear people say simmers would have a better chance of getting out of an emergency situation, opposed to actual pilots with thousands and thousands of hours logged.

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-Chris Crawford

-ATP/MEL

- B737 / B777 / B-727 / EMB-145 / LR-JET

 

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You've never flown a real airplane, have you?

 

and that's exactly my point! Namely that your average experienced flight-simmer could very possibly have recovered that aircraft to stability simply by sensing that a nose down attitude was required, whereas three 'experienced' pilots acted like headless chickens and were totally confused by the situation due to their blinkered training.

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I don't get why its every "simmers" fantasy, to take over an aircraft in distress.

 

Chris. Where did I say  'its every "simmers" fantasy, to take over an aircraft in distress'.  What I said was: "This is the classic question 'Could a flight-simmer' save a plane in an emergency?".  There's no fantasy involved here, its simply a hypothetical question.   Its certainly not my 'dream' to take over an aircraft in distress.

 

First off, if both pilots are incapacitated, you're not getting in the cockpit. You're just gunna die.

Secondly, if one of the pilots is incapacitated, they're going to have another member of the crew sit in the seat, or a jump-seat pilot with actual flight experience. If that's not possible, then they're going to have to ask someone ......

 

Chris.  Hold on. Read my previous post and you'll see that what I said was:  "I wouldn't mind betting that if your average flight-simmer was introduced to that cockpit situation and handed control, then he or she would probably 'naturally' opt to push forward on the stick instead of constantly pulling back hard on it".   Notice the words "introduced to that cockpit situation', i.e. the simmer could be in an  Airbus simulator, or else he could have been 'introduced' into the cockpit.  (Again a hypothetical situation but not impossible).

 

 

Every single non-rev flight I've been on, has one or two non-rev pilots commuting, so they're not going to pick an "expert simmer", over a trained pilot with actual experience. Simmers have never flown "seat-of-the-pants" before.

 

Again I was talking about a hypothetical situations.  But anyway, just because something hasn't happened before doesn't mean that it could never happen.  Indeed, modern quantum physics states that every conceivable situation is probable.

 

 You have lives in your hands, and the people in the back are counting on you to do your job. ... It's very easy for some pilots to get complacent, which is why we're talking about this right now.

 

Exactly. And that's why I hypothesised that  an average experienced simmer -coming into the situation with a fresh/open mind - may well have saved the day..either in an Airbus simulator, or else during the actual event in the cockpit of flight 447.

 

It just really grinds my gears when I hear people say simmers would have a better chance of getting out of an emergency situation, opposed to actual pilots with thousands and thousands of hours logged.

 

Yes I can understand that.  But having having seen situations where the novice comes out on top - such as the  learner driver who snatched the wheel from his instructor to avoid hitting a cyclist;  or the novice white belt who totally floored a highly experienced karate black belt,  I'm well aware that in certain situations, just now and then, a bright and alert novice can save the day when perhaps the jaded or over-confident 'expert' failed to do so.

 

Just saying.

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and that's exactly my point! Namely that your average experienced flight-simmer could very possibly have recovered that aircraft to stability simply by sensing that a nose down attitude was required, whereas three 'experienced' pilots acted like headless chickens and were totally confused by the situation due to their blinkered training.

 

I am sorry, but that seems a little delusional. The input feedback from the real aircraft feels EXTREMELY different from what you get in the sim - games simply cannot recreate it.

Not to mention, it's easy to call someone "headless chicken" while sitting in your chair, sipping on a cuppa and having no care in the world. You somehow don't take into consideration the mantal state you would be in. The panic, fear and stress resulting from that situation can really incapacitate your decision making processes.

 

Perhaps that was the factor in the tragedy.

 

But indicating that pilots didn't know how to deal with an aerodynamic stall becuase of their training is a little silly. They do train to deal with situations like that couple of times per year and there it's much more likely that casual simmer you praise so much, would be terrified to death and couldn't do a thing.

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Hi Folks,

 

This is probably the best example of what happens during a flight when the pilot is incapacitated and a passenger - with very limited experience - has to take over... Fortunately the guy was one cool cucumber... While not and airliner it was a King Air 300...

 

 

Regards,

Scott

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I am sorry, but that seems a little delusional.

 

But so does the sound of three experienced pilots allowing an Airbus to remain nose well up while stall warnings sound off.

 

The input feedback from the real aircraft feels EXTREMELY different from what you get in the sim - games simply cannot recreate it.

 

Different yes, but the stick surely behaves in some way like a conventional joystick, i.e - up-down-left-right.   So all I'm suggesting is a scenario where a simmer with a few years experience simply acts on the stall warning and pushes the Airbus nose down instead of constantly pulling back hard on the stick as the co-pilot did.  Its not rocket science..

 

Not to mention, it's easy to call someone "headless chicken" while sitting in your chair, sipping on a cuppa and having no care in the world. You somehow don't take into consideration the mantal state you would be in. The panic, fear and stress resulting from that situation can really incapacitate your decision making processes.

 

Having watched several documentaries and read several reports on this sad accident, I got the picture.

 

But indicating that pilots didn't know how to deal with an aerodynamic stall becuase of their training is a little silly. They do train to deal with situations like that couple of times per year and there it's much more likely that casual simmer you praise so much, would be terrified to death and couldn't do a thing.

 

As KevinAu put it:  "..there are many pilots out there who were taught in a manner that keeps them from naturally making the correct control actions when outside the normal flight regime. That is the root of the problem with in flight upset crashes in airline aviation..".

 

I'm simply suggesting a scenario where  the simmer manages to get flight 447 onto an even keel by going nose down. I'm not suggesting that he or she should then  pilot the plane safely back to France to a heroes welcome and then steal a real pilot's job .

 

Hi Folks,

 

This is probably the best example of what happens during a flight when the pilot is incapacitated and a passenger - with very limited experience - has to take over... Fortunately the guy was one cool cucumber... While not and airliner it was a King Air 300...

 

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

 

Thanks Scott.  Interesting.

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But indicating that pilots didn't know how to deal with an aerodynamic stall becuase of their training is a little silly. They do train to deal with situations like that couple of times per year and there it's much more likely that casual simmer you praise so much, would be terrified to death and couldn't do a thing.

It's not as silly as you might think. Most of these 'academy' grads that hit the airline cockpits at 400 hours were taught under the paradigm that pitch controls altitude during their first flight hours. It is an easier and quicker way to teach a person to fly, particularly if you want them in the mindset of flying a big transport, but it unfortunately misrepresents how a plane actually flies. To save an hour or two of instruction pre-solo, you short change them for the rest of their lives. Because if their primary instinct is to use pitch to control whether a plane goes up or down, then their primary instinct when confused and terrified is to pull back on the stick if the plane is going down unexpectantly. Exactly what you saw with the Colgan and Air France crashes.

 

As we saw with those crashes, the stall training 'maneuvers', done a couple of times in primary training and once or twice a year in recurrent, is entirely inadequate in overcoming the instincts from their primary training on basic control and years of daily routine flying that proved to them that houses got smaller when you pulled back. In fact, the recurrent stall training we did in the airlines would even reinforce to pilots that it was not appropriate to push forward on the stick, even when stalling. One of the requirements of the stall maneuver in airline training was to maintain altitude, so if you broke the stall with a push or let the stick pusher fire, you busted. We all learned how to perform this silly sim maneuver and graduated. But unfortunately, it made people even less likely to push on the stick when confused and terrified.

 

At least the FAA in the US had finally started to realize the mistakes of the flight training world after the crashes. At least now in stall training at the airlines, the silly altitude requirements have been removed and the stall is practiced with the requirement to push forward with all your gusto to break it and regain flying aoa and speed. Whether the airline training academy industry has changed from teaching pitch for altitude over to pitch for speed, I do not know, but until that happens, there will be a lingering threat that the pilot up front will do the wrong thing on that one night of confusion and terror.

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Fortunately the guy was one cool cucumber

 

The guy was also a certified private pilot, just not certified on multi-engine. 

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No check mate, just poor trolling.

 

I don't mind people trolling on my thread...but I dont think anyone was, except perhaps for your comment ;-)   People have different opinions, that's all.

 

 

 

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