Help with VOR/DME arcs without RMI. Do we have any tutorial or how to?

[wipeout01 0]

Hi,
As far as I know the Bonanza A36 from Carenado don't have a RMI - Route Magnetic Indicator in the cockpit... and many times when I am departing from an Airport, I need to tackle a VOR/DME arc.
Many of the tutorials I find to proceed with a VOR/DME arc, requiere a RMI instrument, and I think I don't have any inside the Bonanza A36, so I am wondering if do we have any videotutorial or tutorial available showing me how to follow a VOR/DME arc without RMI?
Cheers

 

 

I don't see any RMI ?

 

[ryanbatc 12,838]

Well you need DME for sure....  I can't recall if there is DME on the default carenado bonanza?

 

Basically you center the CDI needle if you're traveling outbound on some radial, and about 1 mile before your arc (so at 14 miles if the arc is a 15 dme arc), you turn 90 degrees left or right (depending on the direction of the arc) off your current heading, then you twist the OBS knob 10 degrees..  the twist part just helps you understand where you are on the arc....  once the CDI centers again you turn 10 degrees, and twist the OBS knob 10 deg again.... and so on.

 

edit:  if you don't have DME you could use Direct To a VORTAC and see the distance readout on that.  It's actually easier with DME though because the DME gives you trends to see if you're going going away or getting closer (sort of) to the station as you arc.

[wipeout01 0]

Hi... no I have a friend that is pilot and told me that there is a method to follow an arc without RMI. I'm very sure about that.

VORTAC is for military purposes, I'll use a normal VOR/DME...

I need to follow an arc with the Bonanza so I don't have RMI and I will follow normal VOR arcs ???

Any idea about how to do this step by step?

[ryanbatc 12,838]

Lol

 

Sir I'm telling you you need DME, I didn't mention anything about RMI. The way I described to you is for use without an RMI... It's for use with your HSI (the center compass instrument in your bonanza)

 

VORTAC isn't just for military , it is a VOR/DME combined with tacan

 

PS I'm a pilot and air traffic controller

[jalbino59 114]

I am assuming, since I don't see a dedicated DME receiver in that airplane, that either of those GNS 530's will display distance numerically to or from a VOR/DME or VORTAC.

[wipeout01 0]

Hi ryanbatcund

 

Read fast and confused DME with RMI. My fault, absolutely, I've read your message wrong (fast I'd say), yes, you said DME and not RMI. Sorry, yes I know what a DME is of course.

 

By the way, I am not flying an airplane right now, so please, just call me buddy, and not sir.

 

Let's go back to the VOR/DME arc.

Ok. I have my HSI.. and the CDI to select radials... ok

 

Let's see if I understood this. So as you said (for a departure VOR/DME arc):

 

- If I had a VOR/DME arc of 15 nm...

- 1 mile before (14 nm) turn 90 degrees left or right according the direction of the arc.

- Then I twist the OBS knob 10 degrees...

- CDI arrow consequently will be broken...  and it will start to align...

- One again I twist the OBS knob 10 degrees... the CDI line will be broken and will start to align again (we are inside the arc and we are maintaining the arc)... we repeat this process all the time to maintain the arc...

- As long I am twisting the knob... I also control my actual heading...

 

BUT...

 

I don't know very well how to get out from the ARC?

 

I have a radial of course that will show a straight line toward an airway... so... I am bit confused about how would I know I am 1 mile before... from the radial that gets me out from the arc? I know what a DME is and I know how to use it... but I am a bit confused about how may I depart from the arc...

 

mmmmmm

 

I just try to picture the instruments on my mind... so I'm twisting the knob... and let's imagine I have to depart from the arc in the radial 325...

How do I know I am one mile before of that radial, to start the 90 degrees turn... before reaching the 325 radial, to get align with it?

 

 

PS (jalbino59) Bonanza A36 don't have a dedicated DME, but it has a nearest page, where you can control all the distances from all the nearest VOR... so it is like if it was having a lot of DMEs equipment controlling all the closer VOR.

[jalbino59 114]

Are you trying to fly a particular procedure? If so which airport and which procedure?  

[vgbaron 3,614]

How do I know I am one mile before of that radial, to start the 90 degrees turn... before reaching the 325 radial, to get align with it?

The simplest way that I know of is to tune your nav radio to the desired VOR, set the radial you want and watch the needle - as it approaches center start your turn to course - adjust as necessary. Obviously WHEN you start your turn will depend on your groundspeed and wind but you should only need small corrections.

 

 

Vic

[ryanbatc 12,838]

 

 

I just try to picture the instruments on my mind... so I'm twisting the knob... and let's imagine I have to depart from the arc in the radial 325...

How do I know I am one mile before of that radial, to start the 90 degrees turn... before reaching the 325 radial, to get align with it?

 

 

 

Without DME (Distance Measuring Equipment), OR a GPS, you wouldn't know.  

 

Basic VOR navigation tutorial video

 

Excellent youtube tutorial on DME ARCs

[hesynergy 67]

Hi,

As far as I know the Bonanza A36 from Carenado don't have a RMI - Route Magnetic Indicator in the cockpit... and many times when I am departing from an Airport, I need to tackle a VOR/DME arc.

Many of the tutorials I find to proceed with a VOR/DME arc, requiere a RMI instrument, and I think I don't have any inside the Bonanza A36, so I am wondering if do we have any videotutorial or tutorial available showing me how to follow a VOR/DME arc without RMI?

Cheers

 

 

I don't see any RMI ?

Dunno... Would this help?

 

I only used the GTN750 For reference.

 

 

Chas

[godimaginedme 25]

LOL...

 

You need DME to fly a DME Arc. The final course is your goal course. You set the radial to your initial waypoint intercept, and increase or decrease your course in 10* increments until reaching your desired final course. You need to stay within the required DME for this to work as well. 

[bonchie 2,305]

There's going to be a certain amount of imprecision when just using a VOR and DME (subbing GPS distance measuring is also completely legal). Don't expect yourself to fly some perfect half oval. On the checkride the DPE is looking for you to stay within 1 mile of the given distance.

Without DME (Distance Measuring Equipment), OR a GPS, you wouldn't know.  

 

Basic VOR navigation tutorial video

 

Excellent youtube tutorial on DME ARCs

 

He's asking about being a certain distance from arriving at a specific radial, not the DME fix from the station itself.

The simple answer is that depending on how far from the station he is, once the needle comes alive, the offset of it will give him the distance he is currently from the radial that he has set with the OBS.

 

The dots represents 200ft per nautical mile from the station. So in his case, on a 15nm DME arc (if he's actually 15nm from the station), each dot represents about half a nautical mile from the center of the given radial. So if he wants to turn onto the 325 radial off the arc (as per the example in his question) then starting the turn at a 2 dot deflection will give him a mile of lead time.

[NickATC 2]

 

I don't know very well how to get out from the ARC?

 

I have a radial of course that will show a straight line toward an airway... so... I am bit confused about how would I know I am 1 mile before... from the radial that gets me out from the arc? I know what a DME is and I know how to use it... but I am a bit confused about how may I depart from the arc...

 

Let see if I can help you with this:

 

Let's imagine you need to leave the arc via de 350° radial.  And that you are flying the Bonanza A36.

 

So, what you have to do is to start turning off the arc when you are, say 5 radials before de 350 radial.  It would be the 345 or 355 radial.. depending on the side of the turns.  

 

So. select with the OBS the 345 or 355 radial (that is 5 radials before the desired radial of your aiway), when the CDI centers, it is time to turn off the arc.  This applies to small and slow aircraft.  For faster planes, 10 radials would do the job.  I know there is a math calculation to know exactley how many radials you have to anticipate to leave an arc... but 10 radials in a king (what I fly on FS) is enough

 

I hope to be clear and have answered your question.

 

PD.  When you join the DME arc, is not necessarly 1nm before. Let's put an example of a 10 DME arc.  

It is the 1% of your Ground Speed what tells the distance you have to anticipate..  

 

**Let's say that you fly a plane that climbs a 100 GS...1% of 100 knots= 1 nm.. this is.  At 9nm you have to start to turn right or left 90°

**but... if your plane flies at 180 knots... 1% of 180 kt = 1.8 nm.  In this case, at 8.2nm you have to start to turn right or left 90°

[wipeout01 0]

Hi NickATC thanks for the message.

First thing, I tell everyone what I know how to do.

I know how to tune a VOR frequency in the NAV radio, I know how to select a radial with the OBS, I know what is the CDI and what means when the arrow is completed or broken, I know what is FROM / TO indication in the HSI when selecting a VOR radial.

I know all this, so we can avoid videos to teach me about how to fly with a VOR, I already know that.

I need to focus in the arc.

My problem actually is about holding the arch. I cannot hold the arc, instead doing the whole arch, I do a kind of spiral and I am getting away from the arch.

I am posting a detailed view of the ARCH I want to follow, Formentera, Spain.

 

 

What you see there are two marks, indicating the entrance to the two archs you find in that departure.

I want to follow de MAPED1R departure, so I go for the first arch.

 

What I do is...

Before I take off, I tune the Fuerteventura VOR in my NAV1 radio

I see in the chart, I must start the arch in the radial 217... so I select the radial 217 with the OBS knob to know when I am crossing it.

The CDI line, broke...

I take off with the runway heading, 190

When I am 5.0 miles away from the Fuerteventura VOR, I turn right 90º... so I put my heading 280...

Then I want until I intercept the radial 217 of the Fuerteventura VOR

At that time, the CDI line centers and it's complete.

I check out my DME, and bingo, I am exactly at 7.0 nautical miles.

The arch must be hold in 7.0 nautical miles... so at this point, everything is fine (I guess?)

My problem start right now.

I want to maintain all the arch at 7.0 nm... and my problem is I cannot

I start the arch at 7.0 nm... but at the end of the arch... I am at 12 nm !!!

So I cannot hold the arch... I am departing, and departing, and departing, so I am not doing an arch... I am doing an spiral...

 

What do I do to maintain the arch?

Okay... when I am intercepting the radial 217... my CDI line centers and it is completed. I see the DME and it is 7.0 nm

The arch must be maintained at 7.0 nm all the arc.

Okay...

At that time...

I move the OBS knob in 10 degrees... and the HDG in 10 degrees...

Then... I wait the CDI line centers... and again I do the same... I move the OBS knob in 10 degrees... and the HDG in 10 degrees....

Then... I wait the CDI line centers... and again I do the same... and so on...

This is what I do to hold the arch...

 

However I start the arch in 7.0 nm... and I end the arch at 12 nm !!!

So I am doing something wrong...

 

I think that the only way you can see what I am doing wrong, is taking a look about how I am flying the arch... and...

I DID A VIDEO

 

Here it is:

 

In the video you can see the arch, and I explain step by step what I do exactly...

If you take a look to the video, you would see my error.

 

I really need help with this... because I don't know... I am unable to maintain the same distance in the whole arch...

 

Please could you take a look to the video and tell me what am I doing wrong and how may I correct this?

Chers

[bonchie 2,305]

You are way overcomplicating it. 

You don't have to keep resetting the OBS and you will not have course guidance with the CDI while flying the arc with just a regular VOR. When flying an arch, you know your starting position. You have a general mental picture of the arch. That's all you need except your DME fix. 

When you start on the arch, watch your DME (via GPS with the navaid set if you have no DME). If you start to go from 7 to 7.5, turn into the arc more. If you start going from 7 to 6.5, shallow out your bank some. Make your changes small so it doesn't get away from you. You are literally picturing and flying the arc based on how quickly you move from or away from the 7nm fix. 

 

The only guidance you have or need to maintain the arc is your range from the navaid. That's it. Because of this you will naturally have to correct a lot and may snake your way along the arc. That's ok and totally normal. The point is to remain within 1nm of the centerline of the arc. Not be perfect.