Circling to land.

[Driver170 42]

I'm only saying what i have read and also been told by a few pilots that fly the NG and the bus, that they use the stop clock and by all means it is a visual manoeuvre YES, but they do use the stop clock for the timings.

 

Maybe FBO or whatever that is in the USA i assume? Maybe they don't use timings but certainly in Europe a vast majority of them do. I have even seen a video RYR on a private youtube account using the stop watch m, maybe as backup? I don't know. But they certainly use it.

 

I'm not claiming ALL pilots use it, its down to SOPs and whats in the Ops manual A what you follow.

 

I'm only hear to find out about my way of doing it not yours.

[Guest]

Hi Vernon.

Good to see you attempting the dreaded Circle!

With regards to the operators SOP’s you follow I think I know where you’re going wrong.

 

 

1. L/R 45* for 20sec and (+/- wind component) my TWC is 7kts so i start the timer for 4 seconds.
 

 

Firstly make sure if you’re not already to fly tracks and not HDG’s

After breaking off the approach L/R 45 wait until the wings are level then start your timing. It’s 20sec in still wind conditions (+/- Half TWC). So if you have say a 10kt TW (use FMC PROG PG2) take half of that (5kts) and subtract that from 20. So you’d fly your 45 degree track for 15s before turning downwind.

Once downwind a really neat way to see if you’re too close to the runway (or too far) is to set the ND range to 5nm, the aircraft symbol should roughly be outside the 1.25nm circle.

The rest I think you pretty much have and all the other points provided are excellent. There is no problem overshooting the centreline, use the trand vector and 30 AOB if you have to, so long as you're within the 4.2nm PANS OPS protected area and you don't descend below the circling minima until established on final you'd be safe and legal!

[Driver170 42]

Hi sam.

 

Its a pretty basic procedure to follow but i'm sure its more difficuilt in the real life i bet

 

Firstly make sure if you’re not already to fly tracks and not HDG’s

 

Ok so, you mentioned to fly tracks? Does that mean wind corrected heading i assume?

 

Once downwind a really neat way to see if you’re too close to the runway (or too far) is to set the ND range to 5nm, the aircraft symbol should roughly be outside the 1.25nm circle.

The rest I think you pretty much have and all the other points provided are excellent. There is no problem overshooting the centreline, use the trand vector and 30 AOB if you have to, so long as you're within the 4.2nm PANS OPS protected area and you don't descend below the circling minima until established on final you'd be safe and legal!

 

What circle is the 1.25nm? Am i creating that in the fix page or is it already displayed on the ND?

 

Ok i will give it another shot, but i do overshoot quite wide and thats with 30* AOB and full configured before the turn on finals

[Driver170 42]

Also sam do you use V/S to initiate the descend to finals when turning? Roughly 300 fpm?

[Guest]

Ok so, you mentioned to fly tracks? Does that mean wind corrected heading i assume?

 

 

What circle is the 1.25nm? Am i creating that in the fix page or is it already displayed on the ND?

That's it, you should have the ND to set Track Up so all you have to do is give yourself a heading to match that whatever track you need.

 

The ND has four circles no matter what range you set on the EFIS, each circle represent a 1/4 of the selected ND range. So it you select the range of 5nm each circle represents a distance of 1.25nm from your aircraft. When downwind you want the runway just to be outside the first ND range ring (approximately 1.5nm from the runway). This gives you a ball park picture as to whether you're too close or too far from the runway so you can plan ahead and work out if you'll need more or less bank to roll out accurately on final.

 

 

Also sam do you use V/S to initiate the descend to finals when turning? Roughly 300 fpm?

 

Maintain the circling minima until you're on final and (hopefully if there's PAPI's) wait until you see two reds and two whites, disconnect, recycle flight directors and descend with the PAPI's.

 

Remember this isn't an exact science so if you slightly overshoot or miss your timing by a few seconds no big deal!

[Driver170 42]

That's it, you should have the ND to set Track Up so all you have to do is give yourself a heading to match that whatever track you need.

 

Ok slightly scratching my head - Am i just setting the heading bug at ALT ACQ in my case Left 45* 105 heading or am i correcting that for drift cause of wind?

 

Maintain the circling minima until you're on final and (hopefully if there's PAPI's) wait until you see two reds and two whites, disconnect, recycle flight directors and descend with the PAPI's.

 

Remember this isn't an exact science so if you slightly overshoot or miss your timing by a few seconds no big deal!

 

When i turn on final i'm always seeing 4 white

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Ok slightly scratching my head - Am i just setting the heading bug at ALT ACQ in my case Left 45* 105 heading or am i correcting that for drift cause of wind?

 

A TRACK is a course that already corrects for wind...

 

 

 

When i turn on final i'm always seeing 4 white

 

Turning too early. As I've been saying this entire time, start looking out and eyeballing things. The best computer you've got is in your head. Sometimes, overly-precise is actually a bad thing...think SLOP.

[Driver170 42]

The ND has four circles no matter what range you set on the EFIS, each circle represent a 1/4 of the selected ND range. So it you select the range of 5nm each circle represents a distance of 1.25nm from your aircraft.

 

I've just selected 5nm range on the ND and those circles are 2.5nm sam? Not sure what is going on?

TRACK is a course that already corrects for wind...

 

But will i not need to calculate my drift angle?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

But will i not need to calculate my drift angle?

 

You can if you really want to, but I don't see why. Turn toward the heading. The ND will display the track line and heading carat. Adjust the heading such that the track line is straight down the track you need. Remember that timing starts wings level.

 

...or eyeball it and save yourself the massive headache you're creating here.

[Driver170 42]

You can if you really want to, but I don't see why. Turn toward the heading. The ND will display the track line and heading carat. Adjust the heading such that the track line is straight down the track you need. Remember that timing starts wings level.

 

...or eyeball it and save yourself the massive headache you're creating here.

 

Ok kyle cheers, i have turned to my heading 105* and the trackline is at TRK 110 MAG.

 

So i'll turn my heading 100 to make my track 105

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Ok kyle cheers, i have turned to my heading 105* and the trackline is at TRK 110 MAG.

So i'll turn my heading 100 to make my track 105

 

 

In the 777, it's a little easier since you can switch the MCP between heading and track, but in the 737 you have it correct in your last message here. Set the HDG and as you get closer, you will be able to get a feel for the delta between HDG and TRK and can usually adjust it prior to even settling on a heading.

[Driver170 42]

Seems like the 777 is a tad more advanced than the 737s then.

 

 

Well once i used that easy method to correct my drift, i'm making the turn on finals and not overshooting the threshold we learn new skills everyday. I might of learn't the difference betweem LNAV and HDG modes on the MCP when you have a crosswind, but never considered using it to correct for drift.

 

 

Well this is scientific kyle - Drift = 60* Wind component/TAS. Wind Component is sin(angle off) * actual wind speed

[ExNusquam 11]

I'm a fairly inexperienced pilot, but it still frightens me that it's taken almost 30 posts to explain how to fly a traffic pattern. 

[cimgrp501 30]

I'm a fairly inexperienced pilot, but it still frightens me that it's taken almost 30 posts to explain how to fly a traffic pattern. 

It doesn't, read what Kyle said, follow the #1 rule of flying even at the expense of onerous SOP's in the event you are flying for an airline...given visual conditions of course as stated previously. Prioritize safety vs. procedures.

 

Roy Holley

[Driver170 42]

It doesn't, read what Kyle said, follow the #1 rule of flying even at the expense of onerous SOP's in the event you are flying for an airline...given visual conditions of course as stated previously. Prioritize safety vs. procedures.

 

Roy Holley

 

I would highly credit sam breeze on this who is actually a 737 pilot

I'm a fairly inexperienced pilot, but it still frightens me that it's taken almost 30 posts to explain how to fly a traffic pattern.

 

Yeh you just stick to pressing APP and drinkinh coffee on that ILS lol