Tesla Model III

[Guest]

 

 

carbon production and energy production considering the increased demand on the electric grid for charging versus decreased vehicle fuel burn?

 

Depends on a lot of factors, our home is solar so NO demand on grid during sunlight hours.  But even the best gasoline/oil based engines have a pretty horrible efficiency (20-30% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency) from the energy produced from ignition of gasoline.  It also depends on how "the grid" is powered ... hydro, solar, nuclear, renewable http://www.pge.com/en/about/environment/pge/cleanenergy/index.page

 

As far as managing carbon production, it's far easier to manage thru large power companies than billions of motorist.

 

In terms of electric vehicle output, 762 HP is just early days, I would fully expect that output to double as the transition from gasoline to electric progresses.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[KevinAu 441]

i understand in the end, it depends on a lot of different factors. So let's simplify the question and narrow the scenario for the sake of trying to achieve something of an apples to apples comparison. If you lived off the grid and totally depended on a gas powered generator for your electricity. How much would you save on fuel if you traded in your 40mpg gas vehicle for this tesla?

[michal 44]

Some of the false perceptions about electric cars:

Sounds to me like a pure electric-car propaganda, I never heard anyone raise those points as arguments against electric cars, except perhaps the range, range is indeed limited, if I want to drive 500+ miles (which are often do) and accomplish it in 8 or so hours in a fairly sparsely populated areas I could use perhaps a hybrid but purely electric car is of little use to me. But another point is totally missing here - price. Of course I do understand that if your primary use of the car is commute to work or drive around town - electric car could be a Godsend.

[TPerson 15]

Sounds to me like a pure electric-car propaganda, I never heard anyone raise those points as arguments against electric cars, except perhaps the range, range is indeed limited, if I want to drive 500+ miles (which are often do) and accomplish it in 8 or so hours in a fairly sparsely populated areas I could use perhaps a hybrid but purely electric car is of little use to me.

 

I'm not defending the Tesla brand.  I'm only providing info to educate.

 

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

 

As you can see on the map there are currently over 600 Tesla supercharger stations nationwide and that number will increase this year.  Click the "2016" on that page to see the number of locations expected by the end of the year.  The supercharger locations are spaced about every 170 miles or less.  A 20 minute charge at a supercharger station will allow another 170 miles on top of whatever range you still have at the time of recharge.  There is no cost to use a supercharger.

 

Two weeks ago today I took a family member to Fremont CA to pick up his new Model S.  The return trip was from Fremont to the Los Angeles area.  He recharged twice along the sparsely populated I-5 each time taking 20 minutes.  So at least if you own a Tesla a long distance trip is very real if you don't mind stopping for 20 minutes every 150 to 200 miles.

 

Todd

[Guest]

 

 

So let's simplify the question and narrow the scenario for the sake of trying to achieve something of an apples to apples comparison.

 

Ok, but your situation isn't really a comparison?  But "I think" what you are trying to ask is what is the level of energy efficiency of EV vs. Gas engine?  EV's are between 47-64% efficient vs. gasoline 20-30% efficient.  How and what power you obtain is your choice ... if you're using a gasoline generator, then I assume you need to get delivery of gasoline or pickup the gasoline so you'll have to factor that into your situation.

 

 

 

Sounds to me like a pure electric-car propaganda, I never heard anyone raise those points as arguments against electric cars

 

Propaganda?  For what reason?  Do you own an EV?  We get asked those questions frequently by friends and strangers out on the road.  Natural evolution of economics and energy efficiency, no propaganda ... cheaper and more efficient ways to accomplish the same task.  I view this change as no more different than buying a more recent CPU with that uses less energy ... just natural progress.

 

I understand your use case, but 500mi without a rest stop, you have one strong bladder. (I must be getting old) -- a 30min fast charge along your journey would get you over 600mi in 8 hours and 30 mins, but as EV ranges continue to increase they'll eventually surpass even 60 gallon duel tank diesel trucks.

 

Give EV charge stations sometime to spread to remote locations, gas stations had 100 year head start.

 

Cheers, Rob.

[KevinAu 441]

Ok, I think you ate starting to understand my question. All I am trying to get at in order to comparison shop is; if I replaced my gas car with this ev, to go the same distances, how much of an increase will there be in electricity usage cost? Will it be the same as what I would have incurred in gas with the gas vehicle? Or would the increase in electricity cost be less than what I saved in gasoline, providing a net savings. And if so, how much? It is a simple question.

[TPerson 15]

Ok, I think you ate starting to understand my question. All I am trying to get at in order to comparison shop is; if I replaced my gas car with this ev, to go the same distances, how much of an increase will there be in electricity usage cost? Will it be the same as what I would have incurred in gas with the gas vehicle? Or would the increase in electricity cost be less than what I saved in gasoline, providing a net savings. And if so, how much? It is a simple question.

 

If you use a Tesla supercharger the cost is zero no matter how far you drive.  If you charge the car at home then you can figure out your costs here using the calculator at the bottom of the page..

 

Todd

[KevinAu 441]

Ok, now that is what I was looking for. So it looks like the ev costs $0.039 per mile while the 37mpg gas vehicle costs $0.054 per mile at gas of $2.00/gal and electricity of $0.12kwh. About a 27% savings from gas. Which seems to correlate with the roughly 20% efficiency difference between ev and gas expressed earlier.

 

But if the time of charge from their calculator is hours and minutes, then gas has a huge advantage in time value or flexibility, as the ev looks like it costs you 2 minutes of charging time per mile. While with a gas vehicle, it only costs you, for a 6 minute stop at a self serve station for a 15 gallon fillup, 0.64 seconds of filling time per mile.

[TPerson 15]

But if the time of charge from their calculator is hours and minutes, then gas has a huge advantage in time value or flexibility, as the ev looks like it costs you 2 minutes of charging time per mile. While with a gas vehicle, it only costs you, for a 6 minute stop at a self serve station for a 15 gallon fillup, 0.64 seconds of filling time per mile.

 

I don't understand how charging time per mile is relevant.  Driving a gas vehicle using your numbers over a distance of 555 miles would require a 6 minute stop and then you could go another 555 miles.  That's 12 minutes of re-fueling time over 1100 miles.  Now it's absolutely true that going the same distance on one continuous trip in a Tesla would require a minimum of 80 minutes recharging time (4 supercharger stops at 20 minutes each) which is significant but the cost of that trip would be zero vs your $60 gas expense at $2 per gallon.  Remember the Tesla has a 250 mile range.  If you recharge in 170 miles you still have 80 miles unused so a 20 minute supercharge would get you another 250 miles or to another supercharger where you would rinse and repeat.

 

But if your daily trips are 250 miles or less then there is no time loss because you're charging the vehicle for 9 hours while sitting in your garage at home.  Your same gasoline vehicle is sitting in the garage not moving for 9 hours also.

 

So what is the point of filling/charging time per mile?  The real comparison is the cost of recharging at home which you figured a 27% savings and the cost of recharging on the road which there is none. 

 

Again I understand the time loss recharging on a long road trip but the question each individual has to ask, is the zero cost worth the extra time needed to go the same distance?

 

For some, yes.  For others, no.  Apples to Oranges comparison.

 

Todd

[michal 44]

Remember the Tesla has a 250 mile range. 

Is it Tesla 3 or S? 

Tesla S 90kWh has a range of just about 250 m at 70 mph (assuming flat terrain).

I prefer to talk Tesla S since 3 doesn't really exist yet, we don't know what car it will be, what options, interior, prices, etc.

I have no problem with all your calculations except the price of the actual car is conspicuously left out.

Tesla S with that range that's almost $80K, almost twice as much as I am about to pay for a very nice and rather luxuriously appointed Lexus, brand new, and not one of their tiny hybrids.

Perhaps one day there will be a Tesla that will make immediate sense for me in terms of all the factors I care about.

[TPerson 15]

The Tesla 3 was revealed on March 31st.

 

https://www.teslamotors.com/model3

 

Todd

[KevinAu 441]

I guess that is one thing I didn't understand. These tesla superchargers, how are they free? Have they figured a way to produce electricity at zero cost with them? And if so, how can I install one in my house and use it for my electricity needs? Or is it free to you because somebody else such as tesla or the government is currently bearing the cost? And if so, for how long will this policy last? And should that gracious policy be terminated and credit card swipers installed on them, how much will consumers be charged for their use? Nothing is for free. There is always a cost being borne by one or another to produce something. Either, you, tesla stockholders, or taxpayers will bear the cost of superchargers. It is not truly free and it does have a cost that needs to be considered.

 

Well, the point is there still seems to be a significant opportunity cost in time with an ev. I broke the charging and refilling time into per mile figures because I am trying to compare the two different vehicles with different fuel tanks using a common metric to see how economical it is, in this case, timewise, just as you would use mpg to compare different vehicles, factoring out the sizes of their fuel tanks, or in aviation, metrics such as mpp, casm, rasm, etc. To truly compare things, you have to try and find some kind of common denominator.

 

So using only these supercharging stations, it appears to take you 7 seconds to charge for each mile. So for a 555 mile trip, assuming a speed of 60 mph, it takes 9.35 hours in the gas vehicle including the time it took stopped to fuel it. An average speed of 59mph. For a tesla, it takes 10.32 hours using superchargers as the power source. An average speed of 53 mph. But if you are using normal charging techniques, it appears that it takes 27.75 hours total time to go the 555 miles that a gas vehicle took from fillup to empty tank. An average speed of 20mph.

[KevinAu 441]

Is it Tesla 3 or S? 

Tesla S 90kWh has a range of just about 250 m at 70 mph (assuming flat terrain).

I prefer to talk Tesla S since 3 doesn't really exist yet, we don't know what car it will be, what options, interior, prices, etc.

I have no problem with all your calculations except the price of the actual car is conspicuously left out.

Tesla S with that range that's almost $80K, almost twice as much as I am about to pay for a very nice and rather luxuriously appointed Lexus, brand new, and not one of their tiny hybrids.

Perhaps one day there will be a Tesla that will make immediate sense for me in terms of all the factors I care about.

Of course there is a mathematical way to consider these concerns. Assuming the 27% fuel cost savings over the gas vehicle, an $80k acquisition cost that is 2x the gas vehicle, an hour on the road per day at 60mph, gas at $2.00 per gallon, and electricity at $0.12 per kwh.......A savings of $328 per year on fuel, divided over the $40k acquisition premium, it will take about 121 years to break even.

[KevinAu 441]

 

But if your daily trips are 250 miles or less then there is no time loss because you're charging the vehicle for 9 hours while sitting in your garage at home.  Your same gasoline vehicle is sitting in the garage not moving for 9 hours also.

 

Todd

I totally understand that. We can credit the ev with a -10 hours on the total travel time of 27 hours and call it the 'while I was sleeping' constant. But like the cosmological constant or any constant, it is a number we put in there arbitrarily to force or skew a desired outcome because we either do not understand or want to ignore a certain factor. We can also credit back the gas vehicle 6 minutes of travel time and call it the 'I gassed it up last night already' constant, lol.

 

But if that is to be my one and only vehicle, I would require it to be capable of routine, ad hoc, and emergency travel needs. Especially emergency travel needs. What if you pull into your garage after a day of running around all over town with the battery gauge pegged at zero and the phone rings as you've plugged the car in for it's overnight charge? It's your sister and she says mom has just been taken to the hospital and is deathly ill. They need you there now. She is 555 miles away. What are you going to do?

[Guest]

if I replaced my gas car with this ev, to go the same distances, how much of an increase will there be in electricity usage cost?

 

I think I answered your question, you'll just need to work out the mathematics including costs (transport of gas) to fuel your gasoline generator.

 

But if you are look for "cost savings" then it would NOT make sense to use a low efficiency gasoline generator to charge an EV ... you still have to spend money on gasoline which I assume will be very expensive if you're in a remote location (certainly not $2/gallon) including the cost to transport that gasoline to your gas generator.

 

Assuming your remote locate has "daylight" you would save more money using solar panels which are getting much cheaper to buy and produce more output with less direct sunlight ... add a battery for energy collection, and you're good to go 24/7.  PG&E rates (our local energy company) have consistently increased by 4-7% every year (this is why we moved to solar), our solar remains constant.

 

 

 

It's your sister and she says mom has just been taken to the hospital and is deathly ill. They need you there now. She is 555 miles away. What are you going to do?

 

Rent a gas/electric hybrid vehicle if no EV with that range exists at the point in time you have this emergency ... but I suspect you may then suggest, well what if I want to drive a 1000 miles away - at which point I'd recommend you fly if your desire is it to arrive as quickly as possible.

 

Since you are setting up these extreme case scenarios, I'll introduce my own much closer to reality scenario ... what if someone does build an EV that can go 555 mi on a single charge?  They actually do exists, but considered prototype and will be a few years away before we see them in mass production.

 

But you keep changing your situations/scenario to what seems to be a based on fear?

 

Economically speaking and the deal breaker for many "our way of life" there is no need to fear this change, it is happening just like the internet started off slow and spread to all locations (even the North pole).  One's "way of life" is not going to change much at all ... just as the next best energy efficient CPU didn't make life worse (in fact it made it better, P3D never looked so good).

 

The real questions we should be asking is why are large energy companies like PG&E attempting to add a monthly sur-charges on homes with Solar?  The real "danger" here is not EVs, it's companies like PG&E that our worried their revenue stream is slowly but surely being cut-off.  At one point in time in CA, all new homes were going to be required to include solar ... a cost that would be barely register as a blip ($10,000 on top of a $700,000 home) on home costs ... guess who lobbied against that ... yes, PG&E lawyers and other energy companies ... and they were successful in killing the regulations.

 

Personally I think you are playing into the hands of companies like PG&E and you're not asking the real question ... why does your remote location require a gasoline generator?  Why do you want to be "off the grid"? 

 

Cheers, Rob.