The q400 i think 3 years in development

 

Just a small correction... we worked the Professional version for over 5 years before release, and the Pilot version was roughly the same!

It's easy - you buy it or you don't buy it. If you do, it's worth it to you and if you don't then it isn't. There is no measure of objective worth involved in a hobby.

 

DJ

Greens fees. One golf game. Over in one afternoon.

Greens fees. One golf game. Over in one afternoon

 

Lol  you forget  the balls  you  kind of  mishit  into the water that another  5  or  so dollars,  but  you still come back next week  again 

Lol you forget the balls you kind of mishit into the water that another 5 or so dollars, but you still come back next week again

Those of us addicted to both FlightSim AND golf are truly cursed! Most golfers are constantly " tweaking" too. We're bombarded with a thousand "tips" from dozens of "experts" - online, in magazines and on TV for driving, chipping and putting - some worthwhile, but many quite misleading.

 

Equipment upgrades... I'm constantly buying different clubs, trying different balls etc. The modern golfer has high-tech gadgetry, closely related to what one finds in aviation: Laser rangefinders (radar of sorts) for getting the exact distance to the pin... Garmin makes a range of GPS golf watches (FMS) with moving maps of the course one is playing, with automatic score tracking and stats.

 

Indeed, a single day of golf at a high-end course can easily exceed the cost of a high-end FS add-on, and once the round is done, it's done. At least the FS add-on can be used again and again.

 

Golf and Flight Sim (sigh) This is why I will never be able to retire... My hobbies are too expensive!

Those of us addicted to both FlightSim AND golf are truly cursed!

Count me in that boat as well. I play one to two rounds a week. Green fee plus a snack is usually around $70 per round. Fortunately I'm pretty good and a box of 12 Pro V1's will last me around 10 rounds and I don't change equipment very often since I tend to stick with the same equipment that works well for me. The only clubs I change are a new lob and gap wedge every season since the grooves get worn down to much, but thats only around $250 per year.

 

Compared to golf, flight simming is pretty cheap. Plus as you said, once you spend X amount on an addon, it's yours forever. The only thing in golf you keep forever is the memories (which I wouldn't trade).

 

However, I can see for people who are on a fixed income, students or folks that don't have a lot of extra coin to spend, simming can get expensive if your addicted to buying a lot of addons.

Green fee plus a snack is usually around $70 per round

 

Yea  green  fees  vary  depending  on what type of  course( unless  your  a  member  of  a course)  your  playing, if  playing  on a top course you expect  to pay more  than  to play  on a crap course ,  this probably  relates  to addons  in fs,  you pay more  for the top  of the  range of  addons, :wink:

I think the golf comparisons, while true, actually reinforce the thread starter's original point: golf and what I'll call "serious" flightsimming (e.g. people who spend significantly on addons, hardware, etc.) are both expensive enough that their audience is disproportionately much older and wealthier than your average consumer. It's not NECESSARILY a problem, but golf also has a much, much larger base of enthusiasts to begin with. The margin for error in our hobby is much smaller, and so that demographic skew is worrying.

 

What does it say about the long-term health of our hobby if the average age of the "serious" flightsimmer is over 45, and there hasn't been a new widely adopted stable flightsim platform for 10 years (possibly not unrelated to the first fact)?

 

I've never made a secret of the fact that I think bringing prices down for most (not all) flightsim addons would not only (clearly) result in increased sales, but probably also profit, for addon-makers. Of course, I'm not privy to all the figures that they have. However, I think the broader point is that setting the price point such that you get the same profit but fewer sales doesn't hurt the producer (it's a wash), but it DOES hurt the hobby by depriving it of fresh blood. Let's face it, students and young people with low incomes just can't afford to get into this hobby when most "lite" addons start at $20 USD a pop. That's not true of mainstream gaming at all, and while I understand the different pressures addon producers are under than massive AAA games developers, independent game developers are facing similar issues. They've have responded by massively dropping prices to maximize sales in the past 5 years. Obviously, this has not happened in the flightsim world--and I'm not saying it should (some indie developers feel like the downward price pressure is unsustainable). But it's also not a totally apples to oranges comparison.

 

I certainly don't have all the answers, but I think we, as a community, laugh off the argument that prices for addons are "too damn high" at our own peril.

 

James

As has been said several times, the potential flight sim market is, relatively speaking, quite small. Even if everyone who had FSX or P3D bought your add-on, you'd still not be making a huge number of sales. Dropping the price doesn't necessarily mean more sales. Depending on the product, it could just mean the same number of sales but at a bargain price for the consumers (and a resultant drop in profits for the vendor). For example, not everybody wants a PMDG aircraft and even if you knocked 25% of the price, you probably wouldn't sell 25% more. I prefer GA aircraft and even at a 50% discount I wouldn't buy a PMDG aircraft (as complex and accurate as it is) - it's just not my thing.

 

It's worth repeating that you don't have to add anything to FSX to get a lot out of it. Anyone who isn't a real world pilot (and that's probably most of the potential new customers) won't realise that the handling or performance of the default aircraft isn't quite right (but good enough).

We demand more and more realism.  That comes at a price.  When I think of what I paid for my PMDG stuff and how much use and enjoyment I get from it, I believe the price is fair.

 

 

It's not a free market, it's a limited market with little options.

 

No it's a free market. You are NOT forced to buy anything. FSX comes with airplanes, there are free ones available and it also has an SDK and basic 3d tool so that you could make your own. Buying one that is already done for you is a free choice that you make (the market) but it is not neccesary to enjoy the game as marketed and sold to you. You may also choose to buy very accurate representations or simple ones, but again, the choice is yours and one of the choices is not to buy anything at all.

 

A limited market is one where you must buy something to recieve basic or better functionality (such as those "free" online games that require to make micropurchases to gain maximum benefit of the game).

Very, very few addons sell anywhere near 10,000 copies, and half of them don't sell more than a couple of thousand unless you are marketing very cheap, remaindered software. It is a niche market. As Milviz explains, addons in real-cash terms are roughly the same, BUT THE WORK to produce them has doubled or trebled in time, costs and detail. Therefore addons are very much cheaper in overall real terms than they were ten years ago. I know, because I work at least twice and often three times as hard and long to produce an addon at the same price in real terms compared to a decade ago, and the demand customers make for detail, resolution and features is very much more than ten years ago.

 

Steam and others get away with marketing FSX SE dirt cheap because they are relying on a large, captive audience to spend more money on DLC. The sim itself is a loss leader. The DLC are also cut price because they are relying on large volume, cheap unit sales rather than quality. Either you go the cheap as chips route or you stick to making decent addons that take a long time to produce. Or you offload your past products and give away 60% or more to the middle men.

 

The customer has the choice between cheap addons or on the whole better ones with more detail that are roughly the same price as far less detailed addons years ago. The customer has never had it so good.

£80 - £100 for the latest addons

 

this is too expensive

 

why the expensive price

 

anyone else agree ?

I just bought a month or two ago the IFly 747-400 V2 for $59 usd. I think $52 euro or so? I'd go so far as to say it's the premier add-on available for any platform. It's that good. I'm not waiting for the other mob and paying nearly double to may not get what I've already got.

 

Plus I won't have to pay extra for the soon to be released -400ER and -400F or -8 models either. That's quality at more then competitive prices. Probably the best value for money today.

 

 

But if you're stupid enough to pay nearly $100 euro/usd for an add-on, I've got some high quality snake-oil I want to tell you about....

 

 

Mark L.

I look at addons as two expenses these days. Even more consideration then the money is if it is worth the space on my hard  drive since I have so much on it now. Also time. Will I take time to study the features or does it look like something I'll use little. I have too many of those.

 

 

But if you're stupid enough to pay nearly $100 euro/usd for an add-on, I've got some high quality snake-oil I want to tell you about....

 

I think it depends a great deal on how often you can use it. The amount I'm prepared to pay for an add-on is partly proportional to the quality, but far more to the frequency in which I can use it.

 

If it's something like landclass, navigation data or terrain mesh or a weather add-on, that's something I can use all the time. (I personally think that ActiveSky is under-priced and they should look at an annual subscription model similar to navigraph, but that's just me.)

 

Second on my list is aircraft. I've paid for several PMDG aircraft, the QW757 and the Level-D 767 and I don't mind paying for them. PMDG is competing against their installed base (I've been reluctant to upgrade their aircraft to P3D for this reason) but when I amortize the price over several years and the number of flights it's pretty reasonable.

 

Last on my list is airport scenery, for the simple reason that it's hard to justify a $15-$60 purchase if I only fly in and out several times a year. I have three payware airrports (JFK, LAX and ATL) because of my large amount of Delta flying, but airports are always going to be a tough sell. I also picked up Reality Atlanta which is nice (albeit summer only) for $10.

 

I definitely think there's a lot of room in the $40-60 range for add-ons that you can use on every flight. $100 might be a little rich, but if one can make the value proposition it is doable. When I look at the number of (imo) mediocre add-ons in the $5-$20 range, I think consumers would be well-served by saving their money and getting a $100 add-on if it could be used regularly and provided real value.

 

My .02 - I'm about to see what the market can bear.

Cheers!

Luke