Have a look at this 777 Cockpit Take-Off

[GolfSierra 5]

Interesting, how the opinions and stances differ on this. I don't want to argue about "armchair quarterbacking" here, but I do want to say this:

Just because a pilot usually has lots of training and experience, doesn't necessarily make him a good pilot. Pilots are human after all and can make mistakes or develop bad habits. The vast majority do a good job - but then again, you also have the wide range from "does a miraculous job of safely ditching his A320 in the river", all the way to "deliberately crashes his A320 into a mountain".

It may not be appropriate to judge a person with higher qualification, but using the killer argument "he's a pilot, he knows what he's doing" isn't necessarily very helpful either.

[77west 139]

Humans will be humans. You guys making a big deal out of where the guys hand is... whilst not perhaps the best place, if that's his comfortable position, then leave him to it. Its not like he is having to use much force anyway, its not a 707. You could probably rotate the damn thing using your index finger only.

[pete_auau 1,152]

is  there  anywhere  in the fcom or  boeing  manuals  on how  to hold  the  yoke,  seems  you all making  a big  deal on how he  holds  his hands, and iam  pretty  sure  if  you really look hard  at  other  videos  iam sure  you will find  some  more

[Soulflight 95]

There is a common thing called routine. Most people with 10 years of driving experience wouldn't pass a license tests anymore, because they are not doing everything by the book after so much time. That doesnt mean they are unfit to drive a car. Same applies to airplanes I guess.

 

If I were that FO, and someone would boss me about that hand on the yoke prior to takeoff without being able to explain to me why thats unprofessional, i'd consider him an A-hole.

 

just my two cents....

[Alpha Floor 237]

why thats unprofessional

 

Because you'd be applying an undesirable torque on the wheel. To compensate for this torque, his right hand will be pulling down. During the take-off roll you may have to "slightly" use ailerons in case that a wind gust blows one of your wings up. To be prepared for this, it's better to hold the yoke properly.

 

As said above, the 777 can be flown with ones fingertips, the yoke is very sensitive. Not a good idea to use it as a hand-rest during a take-off.

 

As of cars, most drivers don't know how to hold a car wheel. The fact that they don't crash the car each time they go for a drive does not prove them right.

[PMDG777 231]

 

 

- You clearly didn't read that accident report because if you had, you wouldn't be saying those things.

 

What did I say that was false?

 

 

 

- You have no business in saying what I am or will be or will "probably never" be.

 

Just like you have no business criticising a real world pilot on how they do their job. 

 

 

 

- The "you are not a real pilot therefore shut up" argument is kind of annoying and tiresome...

 

May be tiresome and annoying to you, but it's true. Unless you have gone through the same training and experiences as a real world 777 pilot, you really don't have any argument in the matter. 

 

 

 

It may not be appropriate to judge a person with higher qualification, but using the killer argument "he's a pilot, he knows what he's doing" isn't necessarily very helpful either.

 

I'm not sure if that was directed at myself but I will point out that I didn't use that argument. My argument was "you're not a pilot, you do not have the hours of training and hours of experience required to make any critical comment on any pilot".

 

The fact of the matter is that someone with zero experience in the matter has publicly criticized a real world pilot in an open forum with no basis for their criticism. Had the OP been a real world pilot, the OP would never have made this post in the first place because there's a line between being critical in a helpful way (professional) and downright rude (completely uncalled for and unprofessional). 

 

 

 

Jaime Beneyto

 

I see you've linked your LinkedIn profile. If Jim the cleaner came along and started criticising how you did your job as an engineer, how would you react? Or if you stumbled across a forum with someone criticising your work? Did you even consider the real world implications of your post? Did you consider that that person is an actual qualified pilot somewhere in the world, and that criticising him in an open forum could not only have an effect on him emotionally, but also on his career as a pilot.

 

TL;DR you wouldn't want someone bashing how you do your job behind your back without you knowing, why do it to someone else, especially if you have zero experience on the matter.

[Soulflight 95]

Because you'd be applying an undesirable torque on the wheel. To compensate for this torque, his right hand will be pulling down. During the take-off roll you may have to "slightly" use ailerons in case that a wind gust blows one of your wings up. To be prepared for this, it's better to hold the yoke properly.

 

As said above, the 777 can be flown with ones fingertips, the yoke is very sensitive. Not a good idea to use it as a hand-rest during a take-off.

 

As of cars, most drivers don't know how to hold a car wheel. The fact that they don't crash the car each time they go for a drive does not prove them right.

 

I still disagree. As someone with a scientific background I know that current rules are based on past experience and research, but this research is always subject to verification and falsification and is therefore little more than a "higher-grade" oppinion.

 

I do also hold my steering wheel as I see fit, because over the years I developed a feel for my car, an experienced driver can also judge wether there is a risk of crosswinds on the road or not, by the way the controls and the seat under you feel. A pilot with some 1000+ hours on the 777 may develop a feeling for the aircraft too. In fact its desirable that he does.

 

If there were no strong winds in the video takeoff, why take preperations as if you were taking off into a hurricane?

 

And still: do you know how sensitive the controls of a 777 are? I highly doubt a multi-million-dollar-boeing is built with the same flaws as a game joystick and since an airplane on takeoff and landing is vibrating, there might be FBW filters in place to tell an undesired input from a desired one. Even some computer games use the same, its called mouse smoothing.

[Alpha Floor 237]

Hi Soulflight, I appreciate you don't "attack" me personally and express your arguments in a polite way

 

 

 

If there were no strong winds in the video takeoff, why take preperations as if you were taking off into a hurricane?

 

For one: They are taking off into a big chunk of red on the Navigation Display. This might be a good "warning" that there "might" be some wind ahead.

 

Another one, much more important if you will: Consistency. A pilot wants to develop good flying habits and apply them ALWAYS, not just when he "feels" like there might be some wind or not.

 

 

 

And still: do you know how sensitive the controls of a 777 are?

 

I haven't touched those controls myself, no, but this video here might give you a good idea.

Anyway, control sensitivity is "irrelevant" really. You're supposed to hold the wheel properly in any case.

 

PS: See here how the pilot holds the yoke with both hands after V1.

[GolfSierra 5]

 

 

I'm not sure if that was directed at myself but I will point out that I didn't use that argument. My argument was "you're not a pilot, you do not have the hours of training and hours of experience required to make any critical comment on any pilot".

 

That was directed at the general discussion. However, by your logic, you would also have to be a politician to have the right to criticize the government - or even to vote maybe? I see your point, of course, but I disagree that someone may not voice his concerns if he isn't as professional.

By the way, I don't feel like Jaime wanted to openly denounce the first officer. He noticed that some things might have been out of the ordinary and wanted to share his thoughts. At least that's how I took it in.

This topic is really getting way out of hand, especially since it's in no sense relevant to the PMDG product...

[Alpha Floor 237]

I don't feel like Jaime wanted to openly denounce the first officer.

 

No, I did not.

 

The main reason I opened this thread was to show that sometimes pilots are not "exemplary", which is understandable because they are HUMAN and make mistakes like we all do. I did it because of the fact that many people see a real pilot doing something and they automatically think that that's how it must be done, always. They don't question anything and have blind faith on the pilot.

 

Unfortunately the trees don't let some people see the forest.

 

 

This topic is really getting way out of hand, especially since it's in no sense relevant to the PMDG product...

 

Yes, and I'm sorry for that. I should have posted this thread in the Hangar Chat (or not at all). My apologies.

[PMDG777 231]

 

 

I appreciate you don't "attack" me personally and express your arguments in a polite way

 

Please quote where I attacked you personally.

[PinkPony 171]

 

 

Hi Soulflight, I appreciate you don't "attack" me personally and express your arguments in a polite way

 

Please quote where I attacked you personally.

I believe you misread him there Chris!

[19dcavscout 39]

I still see nothing wrong with him. I am curious how much time the OP has in any real aircraft.

[Alpha Floor 237]

I still see nothing wrong with him. I am curious how much time the OP has in any real aircraft.

 

If I say I have ZERO hours at the controls of any real aircraft, will that automatically make my argument invalid? 

 

Just asking...

[19dcavscout 39]

Not necessarily. I just find it odd for people with zero experience in doing something criticizing someone who does it professionally. I can promise you that he probably does that regularly and it has never had it brought up by senior instructor pilots or other pilots he has flown has.  Why? Because it is technique and it would be hard press to justify that he does not have control of the aircraft. Techniques are not standards, therefore you can't have them held against you as long as the standards are being met. Is he conducting a smooth rotation without jeopardizing the safety of the aircraft and passenger? Yes, and I don't know very many pilots who would say otherwise.