Rudder Question

[Deaf Pilot 1]

Ive been spending a lot of time flying the F1 Cessna 172R, and I have a question for those of you who fly in real life. When making turns, as most of you know, you gradually feed in rudder as you bank, adjusting accordingly. However, when you return the yoke to neutral to maintain a turn rate/ bank angle, is it realistic that you hold some rudder to keep the plane from slipping in the turn? I thought you only used rudder to establish the turn... but as it goes in FS, you have to have rudder input all the way through the turn, until you roll out of the turn. How do the real things do it?

[Guest glnflwrs]

You use as much rudder as is necessary to keep the ball centered on the turn coordinator. "Step on the ball" is a saying used to remember if the ball is right of center, right rudder. Left of center, left rudder. The ball shows where the center of gravity is in relation to the longitudinal axis. If you are banked to the right say, 30* and the ball is off center to the right you are slipping, to the left you are skidding. Banked to the left and ball is left of center, slip. off to right, skid.You need to apply rudder in a turn as long as the turn coordinator says it's needed. If the ball is off center in straight, unaccellerated, level flight, the rudder trim needs adjusting. Glenn"If God would have wanted man to fly He would have given him more money"

[Deaf Pilot 1]

So, typically, would you be applying at least some rudder input throughout an entire turn to keep the ball centered? I know how the whole thing works, I was just wondering if its realistic that I have to keep a steady rudder input through the entire turn, like in FS with autorudder off.

[Guest glnflwrs]

Yeah, that's the routine. I learned to turn by 1)banking to the desired angle, 2)apply rudder to start bringing the nose around and center the ball, 3)apply enough up elevator to keep the nose on the horizon, 4)keep the ball centered 5)keep the ball centered, 6)keep the ball centered, 7)roll to level and center the rudder. While establishing the bank and when rolling out to level you can pretty much forget the ball, it is typically only necessary while banked. (Typically.)Glenn"If God would have wanted man to fly He would have given him more money"

[Deaf Pilot 1]

copy that... thanks :)

[Guest glnflwrs]

My pleasure, sir.Glenn"If God would have wanted man to fly He would have given him more money"

[Guest AndrewMcGregor]

>Yeah, that's the routine. I learned to turn by 1)banking to>the desired angle, 2)apply rudder to start bringing the nose>around and center the ball, 3)apply enough up elevator to>keep the nose on the horizon, 4)keep the ball centered >5)keep the ball centered, 6)keep the ball centered, 7)roll>to level and center the rudder.> While establishing the bank and when rolling out to level>you can pretty much forget the ball, it is typically only>necessary while banked. (Typically.)>GlennHmmm. Not what I have learned training for a competition in just these basic skills.Here's how I was told to figure out how much rudder you need.First, bank the aircraft a little bit and watch the path the aircraft axis takes. You'll notice it slips a bit the wrong way (i.e. turn left, it goes to the right). That's what you're trying to avoid by applying rudder.Now try it with enough rudder so that the aircraft axis stays still until you reach your desired bank angle, then let off a little bit so the ball centers. If you're doing a steep turn, you probably can't do this, so just leave it.When rolling out of the turn, you will need that little bit of rudder in the other direction, which depending on the aircraft may be more than you needed in the turn. That's OK, just do it. The effect is, the turn almost stops while you are still banked and then the bank unwinds. Again, steep turns are a little different, but follow the same action.Now, you've just been using a little bit too much rudder, so use a bit less. The effect then is that for the first 10* or so of bank, the aircraft (almost) purely rolls, then it starts to accelerate in the direction of the turn. The turn should be steady, then decelerate over the last 10* of turn, stopping at about 10* bank angle. At no time should there ever be any turning in the wrong direction.Bingo, perfectly coordinated turn. If you do that, the ball will never even move.

[Deaf Pilot 1]

Right, thats exactly how I thought the whole theory of co-ordination of flight works, so its not the issue of how it works in real life, although you did help me get a little bit of a clearer idea of how it works. I was asking because, in the Flight1 C172, you have to maintain certain amounts of rudder pressure through the entire turn, and you do not use opposite rudder when rolling out of the turn. It's the same for ALL FS aircraft, actually. You gradually increase rudder input with increasing bank angle, and decrease rudder input as you roll out. Thats the only way to keep the ball centered in FS. Didnt seem right to me. Nothing against the F1 C172 though... they have it as close as I've seen in any FS plane by far... I think it's just FS2004's physics engine that doesnt have the physics capability to simulate coordinated and uncoordinated flight properly.Thanks for your input. (no pun intended) ;)

[Guest AndrewMcGregor]

>Right, thats exactly how I thought the whole theory of>co-ordination of flight works, so its not the issue of how it>works in real life, although you did help me get a little bit>of a clearer idea of how it works. >I think it's just FS2004's>physics engine that doesnt have the physics capability to>simulate coordinated and uncoordinated flight properly.>>Thanks for your input. (no pun intended) ;)FS2004 doesn't get it right. Check out X-Plane for a much more realistic example of how it works.