Discussion of HDR & Bloom in P3D

[Cruachan 705]

Loving this tool, but I noticed some scenery especially white colored ones get overblown. Turning down HDR brightness seems to fix it but I think it would also negate the effect of the tool no?

Hi Shanan,

 

Perhaps a successful experience with this tool is monitor dependent. I did not have to calibrate my monitor (ROG seem to have done a great job) but perhaps there are units out there that do require some optimisation. My conclusions are very positive, so much so that I can't see myself flying without these lighting enhancements..ever! Yes, there were a few reservations at the beginning, the main one being the clipping of bloom noted here and there. This was fixed to acceptable levels by reducing the Bloom setting in HDR settings to 0.3. My other settings are Brightness 1.10 and Saturation 0.8. With ORBX and, indeed, the default textures the Simming environment just appears much more vibrant and natural and is akin to what I see in the real world. Also, I haven't encountered the VC lighting problem as yet.

 

If it's any help, here are my P3D config entries:

 

[GRAPHICS]

HDR_BRIGHTNESS=1.100000

HDR_BLOOM_THRESHOLD=3.000000

HDR_BLOOM_MAGNITUDE=0.300000

HDR_BLOOM_BLUR_SIGMA=0.800000

TONEMAP_DAY_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.280000

TONEMAP_NIGHT_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.130000

HDR_SATURATION=0.800000

 

RSP v1.1

 

Terrain & Shadows:

Terrain Brightness: Medium Shadow Intensity: High

 

Autogen:

Enable Autogen Brightness Tweak

 

Clouds:

Enable Cloud Shader with alternative Popcorn Fix (N.B. REX TD with Soft Clouds - Cloud Sizing Algorithm is unchecked and the slider is set at 0.5 Default)

 

HDR:

Step 1

 

I believe Pe11e is still fine tuning his tool so perhaps some further refinements will prove helpful. I wonder how he is getting on? Don't wish to impose unnecessary pressure, but...... :smile:

 

Regards,

Mike

[TheBoom 31]

No.  Author does not use HDR.

I know he doesn't but I'm wondering if turning down the HDR brightness would offset the effect of the terrain brightness tweak in the tool.

 

Seems to be the case though.

[Adamski_NZ 950]

Well - I've given it my best shot ... but I just can't live with P3D HDR (RSP or not).

 

I'm not a professional photographer, but have worked as a graphic designer (don't ask for how long!!). I've sent a lifetime correcting photographs for lack of shadow detail, bleached out highlights etc.

 

To me, HDR mode is utterly "cheesy" - and totally unrealistic - regardless of how long your eye is supposed to adjust to light and shade in RL. Virtually all the screenshots I see from the sim in HDR mode look (to me) over-saturated, over-contrasty and generally nowhere near as good as non-HDR equivalents. Also - do we seem "bloom" in RL? No! It's a *camera/lens* effect. I want to see, in a sim, what I would see with my own eyes - not what I might see in a photograph.

 

All these wonderfully complex arguments for monitor compensation don't cut it for me either - sorry - but this is my own personal opinion only.

 

HOWEVER - I think RSP does a great job in tweaking the palette in every other respect, so I'm really keen on using it and looking forward to whatever enhancements it may bring!

 

Adam.

[TheBoom 31]

Hi Shanan,

 

Perhaps a successful experience with this tool is monitor dependent. I did not have to calibrate my monitor (ROG seem to have done a great job) but perhaps there are units out there that do require some optimisation. My conclusions are very positive, so much so that I can't see myself flying without these lighting enhancements..ever! Yes, there were a few reservations at the beginning, the main one being the clipping of bloom noted here and there. This was fixed to acceptable levels by reducing the Bloom setting in HDR settings to 0.3. My other settings are Brightness 1.10 and Saturation 0.8. With ORBX and, indeed, the default textures the Simming environment just appears much more vibrant and natural and is akin to what I see in the real world. Also, I haven't encountered the VC lighting problem as yet.

 

If it's any help, here are my P3D config entries:

 

[GRAPHICS]

HDR_BRIGHTNESS=1.100000

HDR_BLOOM_THRESHOLD=3.000000

HDR_BLOOM_MAGNITUDE=0.300000

HDR_BLOOM_BLUR_SIGMA=0.800000

TONEMAP_DAY_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.280000

TONEMAP_NIGHT_EXPOSURE_KEY=0.130000

HDR_SATURATION=0.800000

 

RSP v1.1

 

Terrain & Shadows:

Terrain Brightness: Medium Shadow Intensity: High

 

Autogen:

Enable Autogen Brightness Tweak

 

Clouds:

Enable Cloud Shader with alternative Popcorn Fix (N.B. REX TD with Soft Clouds - Cloud Sizing Algorithm is unchecked and the slider is set at 0.5 Default)

 

HDR:

Step 1

 

I believe Pe11e is still fine tuning his tool so perhaps some further refinements will prove helpful. I wonder how he is getting on? Don't wish to impose unnecessary pressure, but...... :smile:

 

Regards,

Mike

 

Thanks will give it a go. I was adjusting HDR Brightness, maybe I should have been adjusting the Bloom levels instead.

[Babyblue 0]

I fee like an idiot, but I can't figure out what is going on.

 

I downloaded the 1.1 and the lastest release from a few minutes ago. On the initial opening I hit restore as it recommends. Then, I did the settings as I wanted. I then loaded the sim up, and have no terrain textures.

 

I am running the latest version of P3D, running the .exe in admin, have deleted shader files and still no luck. I then hit restore and now I still don't have any ground textures.

 

I am not sure if anyone else is having an issue like this. I remember someone posting the last thread about the same issue, but they weren't running P3D 3.2. I hate to be the one to have the issue, was just hoping to give this thing a quick spin.

 

I did have v1 package working very well.

Hey pilot! have you  fix the textures problem? I have kind of the same issue here, download the latest version of this tool, and now I have blurry terrain textures.

I'm running P3D version 3.2, trying to fix it by restoring the shaders but not luck.

 

I feel like I have to re-install the Sim again, and to be honest that's a pain, sim plus all the add-ons is about 250GB and it takes a lot of time to make it work all good.

Please if anyone have resolve this issue, please can you help me to fix it? Thanks! 

[Seria17hri11er 15]

Well - I've given it my best shot ... but I just can't live with P3D HDR (RSP or not).

 

I'm not a professional photographer, but have worked as a graphic designer (don't ask for how long!!). I've sent a lifetime correcting photographs for lack of shadow detail, bleached out highlights etc.

 

To me, HDR mode is utterly "cheesy" - and totally unrealistic - regardless of how long your eye is supposed to adjust to light and shade in RL. Virtually all the screenshots I see from the sim in HDR mode look (to me) over-saturated, over-contrasty and generally nowhere near as good as non-HDR equivalents. Also - do we seem "bloom" in RL? No! It's a *camera/lens* effect. I want to see, in a sim, what I would see with my own eyes - not what I might see in a photograph.

 

All these wonderfully complex arguments for monitor compensation don't cut it for me either - sorry - but this is my own personal opinion only.

 

HOWEVER - I think RSP does a great job in tweaking the palette in every other respect, so I'm really keen on using it and looking forward to whatever enhancements it may bring!

 

Adam.

 

 

Thanks for the comments on that.  One thing I really like about bloom is the light really pops off the aircraft when seeing it from an external view; particularly in Flyby camera.  Have you ever watched the aircraft while it passed under a cloud (with cloud shadows on), and then watched is at came out from under it?  Really, really nice.  Really seems to capture the effect of sun reflecting of metal extremely well.

 

However, I haven't watched that with HDR off... 

[Adamski_NZ 950]

Have you ever watched the aircraft while it passed under a cloud (with cloud shadows on), and then watched is at came out from under it?  Really, really nice.  Really seems to capture the effect of sun reflecting of metal extremely well.

 

However, I haven't watched that with HDR off... 

 

It's pretty impressive with HDR off as well :wink:

 

Under *very specific* conditions the HDR effect can *almost* look OK - but as soon as you move the view (even a fraction) the sim gets either totally bleached out or is too dark/contrasty.

 

I'd like to see in a sim what I see in Real Life. Our eyes/brains do a simply amazing job in coping with diverse lighting conditions - why shackle a sim to what only a *camera* can see?

[sightseer 895]

adam - I find it odd that you get more saturation with HDR on vs off. mine is the other way around. I have a lot less color and saturation with HDR on.

 

with HDR off, its too saturated and heavy and there are no adjustments outside of shader code changes.

 

I defineitely agree that a sim should replicate the eye and not a camera. that's been a strong frustration of mine for quite some time. The HDR in P3D changes the hue of the sky quite a bit on my system. You can create a solid color sky texture and then adjust bloom and take screenshots and see what the output is and you'll see what I mean.

 

but bloom does exist to the eye in my opinion. just look at clouds and when they reflect they seem to pulsate a bit and if youkeep staring they will get brighter...but the brightenss seems to be a very bright blue green to me. theres far too much red in default flightsim but its almost required just to get warmth into the ground in v3.2. I think the ideal color for cloud lighting is somewhere between a 254 254 255 and 255 254 255 (blue bias towards a purple) but its not really right for ground.

 

my .02

 

I wish I knew how to modify cloud shader code so that bloom had one point less red in it. or one less red and green.

[Seria17hri11er 15]

It's pretty impressive with HDR off as well :wink:

 

Under *very specific* conditions the HDR effect can *almost* look OK - but as soon as you move the view (even a fraction) the sim gets either totally bleached out or is too dark/contrasty.

 

I'd like to see in a sim what I see in Real Life. Our eyes/brains do a simply amazing job in coping with diverse lighting conditions - why shackle a sim to what only a *camera* can see?

 

Nice, good to know.  I'll have to try HDR off.

 

On the camera.  It's a useful effect to have for making videos  :smile:

 

But I am with Sightseer on Bloom.  Bloom is definitely something you notice IRL.  If your eyes are centered on the aircraft panel IRL, and then you pay attention to your peripheral vision, it is clear that everything outside the aircraft is quite bright because your pupils have dilated (wider aperture).  That's bloom. 

[Richard McDonald Woods 168]

Hi Mike,

After fiddling around with my own settings for a while, I decided to go exactly with your recommendations. Glad I did!

I think that you have got as near as useful until we see the fruits of the full release. I shall fly with these settings for now.

Many thanks for your analyses.

[Adamski_NZ 950]

I'm not sure "bloom" exists as such in RL, but dazzling/blinding certainly does!!!

 

There's something not quite right in your setup if you think default P3D is "too red", IMHO. Interesting also that your HDR effects are the opposite to mine!!!

 

I love scenery - and particularly the scenery in NZ - and post hundreds of screenshots in the ORBX forums, where you'll often see images that are almost indistinguishable from "the real thing". That's kind of what I aim for, but I agree - many people just enjoy all the effects that the sim can create - regardless of how real they may (or may not be) each to his own!

 

I'm not sure whether screenshots will work on this thread, but here are three of mine - all with HDR off:

 

I admit there may be a shade too much magenta in the sky in this first one - but that may be due to the time of day and my sky palettes (as defined by REX or FEX):

 

A bit contrasty, but otherwise close to the real thing (I've flown in that very aircraft):

 

I don't think you get get VC lighting like this with HDR on:

 

Adam.

But I am with Sightseer on Bloom.  Bloom is definitely something you notice IRL.  If your eyes are centered on the aircraft panel IRL, and then you pay attention to your peripheral vision, it is clear that everything outside the aircraft is quite bright because your pupils have dilated (wider aperture).  That's bloom. 

 

In the friendliest of ways, I take issue (a bit) with that!! I always understood "bloom" to mean the "halo" effect around bright objects - not the dynamic overall eye/iris/aperture compensation type thing (if you know what I mean!). I think that effect is achieved in P3D by another means (whatever you might call it) but invoked by the HDR effect.

 

From "Wikipedia"

 

Bloom (sometimes referred to as light bloom or glow) is a computer graphics effect used in video games, demos and high dynamic range rendering (HDRR) to reproduce an imaging artifact of real-world cameras. The effect produces fringes (or feathers) of light extending from the borders of bright areas in an image, contributing to the illusion of an extremely bright light overwhelming the camera or eye capturing the scene.

 

Not sure who moderates this thread/topic - but if I'm getting seriously sidetracked/off-topic please shout (and I'll shaddap)!!!!

[Seria17hri11er 15]

I'm not sure "bloom" exists as such in RL, but dazzling/blinding certainly does!!!

 

There's something not quite right in your setup if you think default P3D is "too red", IMHO. Interesting also that your HDR effects are the opposite to mine!!!

 

I love scenery - and particularly the scenery in NZ - and post hundreds of screenshots in the ORBX forums, where you'll often see images that are almost indistinguishable from "the real thing". That's kind of what I aim for, but I agree - many people just enjoy all the effects that the sim can create - regardless of how real they may (or may not be) each to his own!

 

I'm not sure whether screenshots will work on this thread, but here are three of mine - all with HDR off:

 

I admit there may be a shade too much magenta in the sky in this first one - but that may be due to the time of day and my sky palettes (as defined by REX or FEX):

 

A bit contrasty, but otherwise close to the real thing (I've flown in that very aircraft):

 

I don't think you get get VC lighting like this with HDR on:

 

Adam.

 

In the friendliest of ways, I take issue (a bit) with that!! I always understood "bloom" to mean the "halo" effect around bright objects - not the dynamic overall eye/iris/aperture compensation type thing (if you know what I mean!). I think that effect is achieved in P3D by another means (whatever you might call it) but invoked by the HDR effect.

 

From "Wikipedia"

 

Bloom (sometimes referred to as light bloom or glow) is a computer graphics effect used in video games, demos and high dynamic range rendering (HDRR) to reproduce an imaging artifact of real-world cameras. The effect produces fringes (or feathers) of light extending from the borders of bright areas in an image, contributing to the illusion of an extremely bright light overwhelming the camera or eye capturing the scene.

 

Not sure who moderates this thread/topic - but if I'm getting seriously sidetracked/off-topic please shout (and I'll shaddap)!!!!

 

 

Great screenshots!  Yowzer, seems I completely misunderstood what bloom is!  Thanks Adamski!

[Seria17hri11er 15]

What exactly does the popcorn cloud fix do?  Does it have any impact on FPS?

[sightseer 895]

well if the halo is supposed to be brightness then why would it be different or brighter than the bright object its supposed to be part of?

 

To me 'bloom' is that effect where when you look at something bright it tends to overwhelm your eye and it appears to get brighter as you look at it (like clouds for instance) XPlane does this thing where when you look at the sun it gets brighter. many racing sims Ive played do that as well. You get blinded by the sun if you look at it but when you look away it gets smaller and less blinding. That's what bloom should be IMO. this bit about 'look up and the sky gets dark and look down and everything brightens' - that's just not right (IMO). Bloom should be about the apparent brightness of sources of light (reflections or otherwise)

 

but Adam - most lighting in FS is red or reddish. it has a tendency to produce a certain look in the clouds that can be good but I don't think real clouds have that much red in them. theres more blue there. even when they look yellow or brown its just that they aren't reflecting a lot of light or theyre just not very dense. its not me or my settings. look at the sky textures if you don't believe me. chances are good that the second pixel will be red biased in some way.

 

is it possible to pull this sub discussion out of this thread? Id love to continue it but...

[vgbaron 3,590]

I've moved this subset here for clarity - 

 

 

Vic