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Michael Moe

another 4K/2160P TV question/help for P3Dv3

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I just had this baby delivered at work less then an hour ago. Was CAD$699 from Amazon. I went with this model as a number of fellow avsimers recommended it. It's also got the fastest response time of all 2016 4K TV's and will run at 30hz or 60z

 

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Pete Richards

Aussie born, Sydney (YSSY) living in Whitehorse, Yukon (CYXY)

Windows 11 Pro loaded on a Sabrent 1TB Rocket Nvme PCIe 4.0, Ryzen 9 7950x3d, MSI X670-Pro Wifi Motherboard, MSI RTX 4070 Ti Ventus 3X 12G OC, 64GB DDR5-6000 C30 Corsair Vengeance, 2x 1TB Samsung 960 Pro NVMe for MSFS2020, 4TB Seagate BarraCuda HD, Corsair RMx 1000W PSU, NZXT Kraken X63 280mm AIO, Phanteks P600S Case.

 

 

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Seems like i am about 400-450mb short on VAS going to 4K. is this normal ?

 

Definitely NOT normal.  I've been running 4K at extreme settings with 300+ add-ons ... I can make it OOM, but it's something I have to do on purpose (it takes some work) not my typical day to day flights.

 

You should NOT need to do anything with your P3D.cfg ... it should detect and setup 4K resolution automatically ... are you manually editing the prepar3d.cfg?  I'd recommend:

 

1.  You delete your prepar3d.cfg, P3D will create a default one and then use P3D UI (do not manually edit) to set your graphics settings

2.  Delete your shaders folder (i.e. C:\Users\Rob\AppData\Local\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v3\Shaders)

 

I don't use EMT or any 3rd party shader products and I don't use NI.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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thanks Rob,

 

I was running my ASUS 3840 x 2160 at 60Hz, but after watching your 2nd video, I tried 30Hz which on my settings (Unlimited, vsync, triple buffering) suddenly made the sim a lot smoother.

 

Do you recommend altering the monitor to 30Hz for simming or does it just come down to personal preference?

 

Cheers Dave

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Definitely NOT normal.  I've been running 4K at extreme settings with 300+ add-ons ... I can make it OOM, but it's something I have to do on purpose (it takes some work) not my typical day to day flights.

 

You should NOT need to do anything with your P3D.cfg ... it should detect and setup 4K resolution automatically ... are you manually editing the prepar3d.cfg?  I'd recommend:

 

1.  You delete your prepar3d.cfg, P3D will create a default one and then use P3D UI (do not manually edit) to set your graphics settings

2.  Delete your shaders folder (i.e. C:\Users\Rob\AppData\Local\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v3\Shaders)

 

I don't use EMT or any 3rd party shader products and I don't use NI.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

Hi Rob

 

I did not edit Prepar3D.cfg  . Only entry is AM=85

 

Forgot to delete the shaders - will try that

 

EKCH Gate A20 i am down to 700MB free vas 4K in the NGX vs 1150MB 1080P

 

I also dont use EMT and 3rd party shader programs in 3.3.5

 

Thanks


Michael Moe

 

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Do you recommend altering the monitor to 30Hz for simming or does it just come down to personal preference?

 

It comes down to your min FPS ... you can run more add-ons and higher graphics settings if you only need to hit 30hz.  To avoid stutters (long frames) for 60Hz you'll need to have min FPS of 60.  It's a lot easier to sustain min FPS 30 than 60.

 

 


EKCH Gate A20 i am down to 700MB free vas 4K in the NGX vs 1150MB 1080P

 

You'll need to provide more details (all add-ons installed and how those add-ons are configured, all 5 pages of graphics settings).

 

Cheers, Rob.

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It comes down to your min FPS ... you can run more add-ons and higher graphics settings if you only need to hit 30hz.  To avoid stutters (long frames) for 60Hz you'll need to have min FPS of 60.  It's a lot easier to sustain min FPS 30 than 60.

 

 

 

You'll need to provide more details (all add-ons installed and how those add-ons are configured, all 5 pages of graphics settings).

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

Thanks Rob

 

Shader deleted and .cfg and now there is only about 1-150mb differents  :wink:

 

Michael Moe

 

PS any other tips other than reducing to 30 HZ ? Are you using videwiew ? and zoom settings ?


Michael Moe

 

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I don't use Wide-view Aspect Ratio ... I have my eye position controls mapped to yoke buttons so I can move up/down, forward/back, zoom is usually max zoom-out, but I also fly with TrackIR frequently.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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It comes down to your min FPS ... you can run more add-ons and higher graphics settings if you only need to hit 30hz. To avoid stutters (long frames) for 60Hz you'll need to have min FPS of 60. It's a lot easier to sustain min FPS 30 than 60.

 

Hi Rob,

 

I just want to start by clarifying that I'm not trying to be argumentative at all, I love discussing nerdy stuff and trying to learn stuff as hopefully it benefits all of us. :smile:

 

Surely you should ALWAYS run your monitor/TV's at the highest refresh rate available that it can manage at the resolution desired.

 

Running a 4k TV or indeed any monitor at it's native resolution can't induce stuttering. Using SLI can, All of us trying to get epic looking flight sims with hundreds of add-ons on our crazy powerful pc's that are trying to run Sims based on 20 year old code bases can too.

 

I don't really understand what you mean by  a "long frame" above.  The Hz in reference to our TV/monitor are all the same speed, one can't be longer than another. If you are referring to frame pacing, then I agree that this varies, but your TV or monitor still doesn't care.

 

If your panel has a native refresh rate of 60Hz@UHD resolution, your monitor/TV doesn't care that you are only outputting 20 fps, 30fps or 40fps etc. Hz don't equate to fps. Hz is a measurement of how many still images it can render per second NOT how many fps your graphics card(s) frame buffer can output per second (fps).

 

The only time your monitor or TV will run into problems is when your graphics card outputs MORE frames per second than your panel can render, which can cause screen tearing and that's why have v-sync to counteract the tearing. Unfortunately V-sync also adds input lag.

 

The problem with lowering your 60Hz panel to 30Hz is that you have instantly doubled your input lag and doubled your motion blur for 0 gains.

 

If dropping the refresh rate of your TV to 30Hz could combat stutters at 30fps, then why do Sony and Microsoft for example output the PS4 and Xbox One at 1080p@60Hz when display output is set to auto, when probably 75% of console games all run internally locked at 30fps? They don't as all it would do is add input lag for zero gains.

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You want to run you monitor's refresh at or lower than your minimum FPS (assumes you run with Vsync, triple buffer, and unlimited in P3D).  This will ensure you have the least variance in time frames and avoids "long frames" ... long frames (often observed as stutters) are frames that take longer to render by the CPU/GPU such that the "new" rendered frame is NOT completed at the time of the monitors sync cycle.  30Hz has a sync cycle of about 33.3ms, 60 Hz has a sync cycle of about 16ms ... so if a frame takes 40ms to it will visually present itself at a stutter for a monitor with a 30hz refresh ... the render is 6.7ms late.

 

Input lag is related to FPS (rendering of frames).  Your control device will present it's raw data based on it's polling frequency ... so your device could be operating at 100Hz but if your CPU/GPU can only capture that input data at 20 FPS (or 20 times per second, which is 1/5th of the actual data the device is producing) the CPU/GPU it takes that "single" data point and will ignore the rest and use that data point to render a frame ... the ignored data is what presents itself as "input lag".

 

Panels don't have a "native" refresh rate, they do have a native resolution.  If you notice, most panel will list refresh frequencies in which they can operate at 25,29,30,50,60,120,240Hz.

 

20 year old code?  Don't understand that reference?  P3D is 2 month old code?  XPlane beta is 2 week old code?  You're assuming "old code" is bad code or inefficient code, having programmed for 30+ years and still coding, much of my older code is actually more efficient than my newer code and tends operate faster.  In fact, if you wanted extremely fast code it would primarily be done in Assembly language (referred to as ASM which is a lower level language than C, C++, C#, etc.) ... only the macho programmers operate at that low a level.

 

Motion blur and/or display lag is not related to refresh frequency ... it's related to pixel response times.  For example I have some cheaper Acer 2K monitors that have very poor pixel response time (still at 60Hz refresh) and I can visually see ghosting and blurring when I'm doing very rapid motion.

 

I have no idea what Sony or Microsoft consoles do, I have a PS3 but I use it exclusively for NetFlix and it's blu-ray player.  If these device restrict themselves to 30 FPS then it's most likely a result of wanting to be compatible with older TV's that can only operate at 30hz ... but again I have no idea if consoles have Vsync options or not.

 

Here is an older example of some time frame analysis I did with P3D going back to V3.0:

 

66ff6bb54b5fe7efa7797e2270d9810c.jpg

 

 

51963e6f82a7c502be1a6975802e2042.jpg

 

As you can see with Vsynch OFF and unlimited, even though the average time is less (23.7 ms) and FPS is higher (42), the frequency of long frames (>33.3ms) is MUCH higher which will visually appear as "stutters".

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

EDIT: the TV/monitor does NOT "render" anything, it merely takes color data provided by the GPU and sets each pixel with that color data ... the CPU/GPU does ALL the rendering.  Some TV's can "buffer" images, in the case of games/sim, you actually do NOT want your TV to buffer anything ... buffering in TV/monitors is primarily there for movies and not for computer generated data.

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A little confused here

Should i set my resolution to 4K@25 HZ and lock 30fps inside P3D with or without VSync ?

At least i can try it out

Thanks

Michael Moe

PS ! I have both RGB and YbCBR options in Nvidia Control Panel up to 4K/ 60HZ and 12 bit or 8 bit


Michael Moe

 

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Should i set my resolution to 4K@25 HZ and lock 30fps inside P3D with or without VSync ?

 

No, it's best to allow the hardware to control ... VSync ON, triple buffer ON, Unlimited, Monitor at 30Hz if you can't sustain 60 fps for 60Hz operation.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Running a 4k TV or indeed any monitor at it's native resolution can't induce stuttering

 

You would think not but with P3D it does with my Samsung 4K TV.

Targeting 30 FPS, Vsync on, 60Hz = stutters while 30Hz = smooth.

By smooth I mean a constant frame time which is really only acceptable at the typical "low" speeds we fly at. Pan around fast at 30Hz and it's easy to see the stuccato effect of 30Hz.

 

gb.


YSSY. Win 10, 6700K@4.8, Corsair H115i Cooler, RTX 4070Ti, 32GB G.Skill Trident Z F4-3200, Samsung 960 EVO M.2 256GB, ASUS Maximus VIII Ranger, Corsair HX850i 850W, Thermaltake Core X31 Case, Samsung 4K 65" TV.

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No, it's best to allow the hardware to control ... VSync ON, triple buffer ON, Unlimited, Monitor at 30Hz if you can't sustain 60 fps for 60Hz operation.

 

Cheers, Rob.

Hi Rob

 

Thanks alot , OMG it is so smooth at 30HZ :smile:

 

What a Sim changer this 4K 49" has done for me. Lots of detailed airports come to life with things i missed on my 28" :Tounge::Tounge: . Even my SLI does not produce any stutter at 30HZ/30FPS.

 

I saw some jitter at 60HZ/40-45fps

 

Wow :smile:

 

Now i need to test settings with the NGX to manage 30 fps

 

Thanks alot

 

Michael Moe


Michael Moe

 

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Thanks alot , OMG it is so smooth at 30HZ

 

Glad it's working for you.  It's hard for today's hardware to operate P3D with many add-ons above 60 FPS with 4K res, maybe tomorrow's hardware will be able to do that, but until that happens operating a monitor at 60Hz with a FPS less than 60 will have long frames and/or inconsistent time between frames.

 

Don't get me wrong, >60 FPS and 60Hz is better, but it's just hard for any current PC with add-ons at 4K to do that with high graphics settings ... as such 30Hz is the best option for P3D.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Thanks for the explanation.  Are the figures in your graphs using sli or 1 card out of curiosity?

 

I saw an old thread that you posted Rob about sli performance, but i think that was before P3D had a proper sli profile. I have 2 MSI 970 gtx overclocked running with 16gb ram and a i7 4770k@4.4ghz. I have an Asus strix 970gtx in another pc upstairs, just wondered if you thought I could get any performance benefits from tri sli for 4k? I have a Maximus Hero VII motherboard which supports tri sli.

 

cheers!

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