Long range navigation pre INS

[Guest rici]

Hiya,I am thinking of buying CS C-130 or 707 but I was wondering how you would navigate across sparse terrain were there are no VORs or NDBs. Being a navigator in the real world I'd jump for my sextant but obviously that may be a little beyond FS!!! I would quite like to fly around the Pacific but I don't quite know how to go about it short of sticking to a heading and waiting for a radio becon to come into range. I guess you could work out a great circle with some stear points at various intervals but how would you confirm your position? Anyone give me some tips?Cheers

[Dark Moment 0]

<<<>>Dave Bitzer and I have made an aircraft sextant for FS, modelled on the RAF style MkIX. File name is dc3_bbsx.zip.Pre NDB and VOR - or at least, when there were very few NDBs - most aircraft used Radio Range equipment. Beacons were extensive in the US during the heyday of this method of navigation, but sparse elsewhere in the world. Navigating in the Far East, for example, you'd spend a lot of time trying to call up local radio stations!The lads over at DC-3 Airways have developed Radio Range navigation equipment for FS, complete with beacons in the US. This is not on the public sites as yet, but works well. As you know, RR equipment works on audio signals (A, and N, in morse) and so this is a masterpiece of FS development, frankly, because it works!Otherwise, we're talking VFR or Ded Reckoning.Check out DC-3 Airways site, anyway, as there are lots of good tutorials about early navigation - either as part of the site, or linked. See www.dc3airways.com. Just don't bring a GPS anywhere near us....Good luck with the Pacific. Try out our sextant!MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

[Guest Rockcliffe]

Mark, is that RF system going to be uploaded? If so, just call me Ernie Gann!And yes, the star sextant is a very cool tool.BlairCYOW

[Guest rici]

fantastic that looks brilliant! One further question, does anyone know were I would be able to obtain Pacific or Atlantic ocean aeronautical charts that I can plot great circles and courses on? (didnt see any on the dc3 website)thanksrich

[woodreau 0]

>One further question, does>anyone know were I would be able to obtain Pacific or Atlantic>ocean aeronautical charts that I can plot great circles and>courses on? (didnt see any on the dc3 website)>thanks>richJeppesen sells pacific and north atlantic plotting charts for around $18-20 per area.It's under charting and navigation services -> IFR chart services -> Plotting Charts

[Guest rici]

thanks. last question, this may sound silly, but what is the difference between the set of 10, 100 and 500? the only info given is that the charts cover 'west coast of USA to Hawaii'.I thought that maybe the set of 10 covered the same area as the set of 500 only in more detail, but then the scales are both 1 inch to 100nm. um,so yeah, what is the difference?http://www.jeppesen.com/wlcs/application/c...tegory_id=CNS1KThanks for all your help. got the sextant, looks like just what I wanted cheers!

[RFields5421 1]

I've made some pretty long - 6-800 nm - flights in small GA across the Pacific islands in FS - without FSNav or the GPS.About three quarters of the time I find the beacon on the other end - depending on the weather. Wish I had a Tacan.I try to plan the flights near sunrise so I can approximately check my heading and look for drift.I suspect FS is much steadier about winds and weather out in the open ocean than the real world.I remember my first long range GA flight in a NAS Guam two seat Cessna - to Yap - back in 1973. Knowing what I know now - the pilot, and his naieve young passenger (me) were fools.My cousin riding in the back seat of an F-4 from El Toro to Chu Lai via Kahone, Midway, Wake, Guam, Subic at least had a hope of hitting his target, and enough other air traffic to help him out if he got in trouble. Though he does describe finding Wake as a very rough deal when their Tacan went down.

[old_doggie 0]

Pre INS was ONS or Omega, which was a network of eight VLF transmitting stations located throughout the world to provide worldwide signal coverage for marine and air navigation.The on board pilot interface or keyboard looked similar to the INS' with many differences of course. The Omega stations transmit precisely timed signals in the VLF band (10-13 kHz). Because of the low frequency, signals can be received to ranges of thousands of miles and system accuracy of 2 to 4 NM worldwide.Crossed the pond many, many times using ONS, of which there were two ( B707-300) both NAtl and SAtl right on course. I have not come upon any add-ons of ONS for FS though but there is an outstanding effort(ongoing) for the INS.Douglas

[Dark Moment 0]

DouglasI don't believe anyone has mastered - or bothered with - Omega for FS yet, no. Yet.You're obviously well up on it - do you have any good reference sites or information to hand? Where were the eight VLF stations?MarkMark "Dark Moment" BeaumontVP Fleet, DC-3 AirwaysTeam Member, MAAM-SIM[a href=http://www.swiremariners.com/cathayhk.html" target="_blank]http://www.paxship.com/maamlogo2.jpg[/a]

[Guest rici]

Hey again. The eight stations were:Norway (A)Liberia (:(Hawaii ©North Dakota (D)La Reunion (E)Argentinia (F)Australia (G)Japan (H)The omega service ceased in september 1997. As a side note we still use LORAN-C which uses primary and seconday stations to triangulate position. There are various LORAN chains throughout the world although their being phased out. Don't know if they were ever used in aviation though.

[HawaiianCondor 0]

Great thread...I have talked to several old time flyers who used both Loran A and Loran C (mostly air force types) for trans-oceanic navigation, although out here in the Pacific as you know there were a lot of US Coast Guard operated Loran stations (Hawaii, Kure, French Frigate Shoals, Johnston Island, Wake, Palau, Yap, Iwo Jima, Marcus Island and the list goes on). But we never had full ocean coverage, that's one of the reasons Omega was so important. We also operated Ocean Stations, large ships with radiobeacons in pre-set mid-ocean positions who were a SAR standby for airliner ditchings (which used to happen in the pre-jet days, and a weather report center)..With better satellite navigation tools we were able to close Omega and of course Loran C coverage is much smaller now with the advent of GPS and differential GPS for precise navigation. The Coast Guard still has a couple chains in Alaska to support both aviation and fishing fleet and maintain a mid-continent Loran chain in support of the FAA and general aviation.But the days of having to stick 30 guys in the middle of the Pacific on a rock with some generators, beer and a runway for C-130 log flights to put the Loran signal out are thankfully over now. By the way, the CIVA INS (I'm not sure when INS became common use in cross ocean flights, but I'm sure that took some of the worry out of reliance on land based radio nav) works great in the CS-130.regards,chris conklinCommanding Officer, USCG Loran Station, Port Clarence, AK 1981-1982

[Guest shazapis]

Hello,very interesting thread indeed.Anyone with actual experience in using Doppler radar/computer to cross the Atlantic?The Greek Air Force C130s used ONS and Doppler to do it (and starshoots as well ofcourse) but I have never met anyone that has actually done it (I am too young I guess)...Is it acurate?RegardsSpiros HazapisAthens, Greece

[RFields5421 1]

My first squadron had three aircraft types - EC-121N, EP-3B and EA-3B.The two big birds had Loran receivers, and might have also had Omega. They also carried navigators - especially important when off the coast of countries who would shoot first and ask questions later. Many times I've seen the Connie navs shoot the stars and sun.The EA-3B Skywarriors did not have Loran or Omega - their navigation gear consisted only of tacan / ndb / vor and a bubble sextant. They carried a naviagator in the single pilot cockpit.The elint gear in the backend could find a walkie-talkie with about 5 feet accuracy halfway around the world. That was expected to be a backup for the navigation gear.Well, sure enough an A-3 was being flown from Guam to Subic in September 1973 - leaving Guam about 1030 local due in Subic about four hours later. They took two extra navigators and planned to use the ferry flight for navigation training.They lost the electronic compass, the wet compass, they had the wrong year air almanac, the bubble sextant didn't have a bubble - and the Air Force had loaded new software for their HF DF net that day.They were lucky, about 5 min before fuel exhaustion, they overflew a ship. They didn't have fuel to go down and alert the ship - could not contact it on radio. They bailed out per NATOPS at 225 kts, 10,000 ft. Every one of the five was knocked unconcious, every one of the five had pieces of the face shield imbedded in their boots and sprained hip joints.They bailed out over JDS Shirane - the only ship in the JMSDF at that time with a helicopter embarked. They were out of the water in less than a half hour.For the rest of the time I was in the squadron - an Elint operator had to be onboard any A-3 flying, even FCLP / TNG on Guam.