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Roger Mazengarb

Interesting story of a past AA crash

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Sum it up in one word, Scarebus.This FO was a son of a captain at the same airline. I find it very hard to believe he did much of anything wrong. Plenty of AA pilots came out after this and stated they will not fly Airbus and want transfers to Boeing equipment. They had also stated they'd never heard in all the years of flying many different types of aircraft that this rudder deflection was something they should be aware of. They don't believe a Boeing would've fallen apart at all.


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Guest B52Drivr

Scarebus,Yep that pretty much says it all. Having flown aircraft, driven racing cars and the like all I can say is that it is my not so humble opinion that regardless of what the FO, pilot, flight attendent, cook, passenger, short of disassembling the tail section, the tail, rudder, vertical stabs and such should have stayed on the aircraft and functioned. For them to do anything else is a design problem of the first nature.Personally, I don't and won't fly in anything that say's Airbus on it. That is MY choice . . . your mileage may vary.Best to all,Clayton T. DopkeMajor, USAF (Retired)"Drac"

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Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with you. It is obvious from Mike's comments, as I pointed out, that he does not understand. And I don't care what he did before he changed positions. If he thinks that the tail came off from one input of full rudder, and furthermore believes that the A300-600 does not have a rudder limiter, he does not understand.

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I hate to burst your bubble, but rapid, full rudder inputs applied in an oscillatory manner can break the tail off of any transport category airplane, Boeing included.

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Guest Bry

Yes, immediately after this crash ALL airline manufacturers, including Boeing, issued a safety bulletin stating that repeated stop to stop rudder movements should not be carried out while in flight. Not a single large modern airliner is designed for such action.The tail on this A300 actually exceeded its maximum design load by some way before it snapped. So yes, it is amazing the tail stayed on as long as it did.Its a miscommunication by all airliner manufacturers and airlines. Like many past cases, a problem is often only found after an accident occurs. Its happened with the Comet and its happened with the 747 cargo door locks

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Hey guys.The rudder/rudder limiter itself, again, not the cause, but a factor none the less. Now, there was obvious misunderstanding here, as to how the limiter operates, but it in and of itself was not the problem.The breakout force, the force required to move the rudder at all, and the force required to go full stop, are very close, at speed. In fact, post-accident tests that involved line pilots, and even an Airbus test pilot, showed that it is impossible to modulate, say a half-deflection only, at the speeds of the accident. At this stage, the rudder pedals become more of an on-off switch, giving all or nothing.PF encounters upset, applies what he feels is a small amount of rudder to stabilize. He gets full rudder deflection, and an obvious unwanted response from this, so he corrects the other way, and again gets full rudder deflection, in the opposite direction. PIO if there's ever been.That fin took a pounding before it departed the aircraft. I honestly believe that A300 operators have taken heed to this investigation, regardless of what the current report shows. The battle now is over who pays the bill, not what can be learned. I don't believe we will see this again.


Regards,

Brian Doney

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Guest JDH

Oh yes, because a Boeing has never crashed due to a rudder defect, has it?:-roll

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Guest bobsk8

>Sum it up in one word, Scarebus.>>This FO was a son of a captain at the same airline. I find it>very hard to believe he did much of anything wrong. Plenty of>AA pilots came out after this and stated they will not fly>Airbus and want transfers to Boeing equipment. They had also>stated they'd never heard in all the years of flying many>different types of aircraft that this rudder deflection was>something they should be aware of. They don't believe a>Boeing would've fallen apart at all.If it ain't Boeing, I ain't Going!!!

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Guest ThrottleUp

What a frightening animation.May they Rest in Peace.

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Guest Douglas K

You win the solid gold award for accuracy Brian, the A300-600 rudder limiter is a bad design compared to Boeing

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Guest B52Drivr

Hello All,Well, I have to say we have a varied amount of opinions on this subject. Personally, Aircraft as many things in this world need good, solid design parameters, because knowing humans are going to operate them, humans being flawed, will make mistakes.No matter what, the tail should not have departed the aircraft!Best to all

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Douglas,Just so I am clear, I don't blame the pilot any more, or any less, than other contributing factors, of which there were many.I didn't say he was "kicking the pedals madly to the stops".I hope my posts don't read that way.Accidents happen, and that's just what they are, accidents. Almost every accident in aviation is the result of a combination of factors, very rarely is it ever just one thing. This anti-Airbus garbage really looks ignorant, when the facts are considered.


Regards,

Brian Doney

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>No matter what, the tail should not have departed the>aircraft!>>Best to allSir,With all due respect, that makes no sense. No matter what ? Are you serious ?


Regards,

Brian Doney

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Guest Douglas K

>>>>I didn't say he was "kicking the pedals madly to the stops".<<<

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Guest Douglas K

>>>>No matter what, the tail should not have departed the aircraft!I agree. But the point I wanted to make is economics often overrule safety, and airlines operate (and base their profit margins) on what they can get away with. Like it or not, and believe it or not, fatal crashes are a contingency planned for and are considered acceptable risks. I think of it as the "not enough lifeboats on the Titanic" syndrome. That was the same type of economically driven design failure (allowed by law at the time) that exists today in many transportation industries. Acceptable risk management dictated that "boats for all" need not be supplied, after all what were the odds the old tub would sink? It took over a thousand deaths to change the law to provide enough lifeboats for all passengers.For aircraft, weight dictates success. The lighter it is, the cheaper the operating costs. Some of the newer airplanes have plastic screws for interior trim, and if that were the extent of the cost-conscious measures then there wouldn't be a problem beyond the obvious difficulty of removing and re-installing plastic hardware without damage over the many inspections during the aircraft's lifetime, when even quality metal hardware needs frequent replacement. When you gut the interiors on some of these birds, there isn't much there. Compared to older aircraft, the older airframes are built like a tank. Food for thought if you have an uncommanded rudder hardover at .75 Mach.Douglas

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