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DTG Martin

What do you want from an SDK in DTG Flight Simulator (Official Discussion)

Dovetail Games SDK Player Poll (Official)  

46 members have voted

  1. 1. Have you ever personally used the SDK that is included with FSX?

    • Yes, I have used the SDK
    • No, I have not used the SDK
  2. 2. If you have used the SDK, what did you use it for?

    • I have not used the SDK
    • I used it for my home cockpit setup
    • I used it for livery creation
    • I used it to create my own aircraft
    • I used it to create my own airport
    • I used it to create a mission(s)
    • I used it to modify the data in FSX
    • I used it to modify the content in FSX
    • I used it for something else
  3. 3. Have you ever created any freeware content for FSX to share with the community?

    • Yes, I once created some freeware content for FSX
    • Yes, I regularly create freeware content for FSX
    • No, I have not created freeware content for FSX


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  • Why do you want an SDK?
  • What exactly do you currently use the FSX SDK for?
  • What sort of content do you create with it?
  • What does your workflow look like?
  • Are there certain things about the current SDK that annoy you or that you wish were different?
  • Would some sort of scripting tool or editor be more useful to you?
  • What third party tools or software do you use with the SDK? Photoshop, Blender

 

 

I want an SDK because I want to create content for the new DTG Flight Sim...

 

I use the FSX SDK to create content for FSX, specifically aircraft models. If they're good enough I'd like to release these models to the FS community freeware libraries.

 

My workflow looks like a lot of jumping around from plans, photos, books and magazine articles until I've got a proper idea of what I'm trying to build, then a lot of work modelling, mapping, animating a particular model with a great deal of trial exports to see what the thing looks like in FS in collaboration with a painter. Coding will come later.

 

Things that annoy me about the FSX SDK are although it's the best SDK produced for any version of FS, it's targeted squarely at people who already know what they're doing; although quite comprehensive, it's rather haphazardly organised and there are whole areas like flight modelling which are simply not documented. Someone reading the FSX SDK is met with a raft of what really cool things Simconnect now includes and talk of EventIDs and Simulation variables. The beginning modeller could do with a plain guide to starting out instead of burying New Aircraft Procedures away in Environment Kit/Modelling SDK or making airport placement as clear as mud. Nobody's pretending this can be made primary-school simple, but some thought to direct the new developer towards a useful workflow would be a plus.

 

The FSX flight modelling is still not documented except by third parties: that cannot be acceptable for any future flight sim. This isn't rocket science, but it runs pretty close and to leave us to guesswork, random trials or resorting to voodoo is in nobody's interests. BTW, a properly developed turboprop section of the flight modelling would be a big plus.

 

A scripting tool or editor which checked coding syntax and typecasting in animations or systems would be a real help compared to FSX and avoid long frustrations from a missing or surplus space/parenthesis or catch us trying to divide a boolean by 7 and couldn't get it to work?

 

I used to use Gmax for modelling and now use 3ds Max: it's an old version but as a hobbyist it doesn't cost me anything more to keep on using it. If a DTG SDK toolset only supports the latest version of 3ds Max (now 2017) you will kill off the hobbyist potential immediately: it costs £186 per user per month. Gmax is no longer an option, so you have to support a lower-cost or freeware modelling tool to bring in the learners and small-time freeware developers who will produce the future PMDGs and Aerosofts of the FS world. For graphics I use Photoshop CS4 – 'nuff said. None of these are easy to learn, but we're trying to simulate aviation, not join-the-dots drawing. Simple tools just can't produce the standard of work the simmers are looking for.

 

You'll get many pleas to make your SDK as simple and easy as possible – please instead try to make it as comprehensive as possible, updated as thoroughly as possible when new features are introduced and consider date-stamping the entries so we know what's been changed and when.

 

A really good SDK makes third-party add-ons much easier. Better third-party add-ons attract more customers. More customers buy more copies of the sim. That's business.

 

 

And thank you for asking!  (plus there are lots of actual developers at FSDeveloper.com – these are the people you should be asking)

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Yes.

 

We need as complete and comprehensive SDK as possible. We need 'transparency' from DTG in that you should deliver file format information and as many tools as possible for content creation. Don't worry that some topic may be too complicated. We seriously have hundreds of geniuses developing scenery, and one or two will figure it out and deliver the info to the rest of the crowd. This is exactly how we have been discovering and disseminating development techniques since the earliest of Microsoft's FS series

 

Also. To really invest in this topic on an SDK, we right now need to know how much of Flight Simulator will be based on FSX file formats, and exactly how much latitude and protection will developers have concerning ownership of their content creations. We also need to know how those content creations are to be included in the sim. For example are they to be submitted to Steam or Dovetail, or can we upload to libraries such as AVSIM? Can we sell our creations without the need for Dovetail approval or compensation to Dovetail?

 

Without these answers, few serious developers will venture into the process. We want to know in what we are going to invest our time and money. Given enough 'transparency' from Dovetail, and assurances that it will be worth our while, an EARLY and comprehensive SDK will allow developers to quickly bring content to Flight Simulator. Addon content = user enthusiasim. This was the reason Microsoft's Flight failed. No addons = no enthusiasim.

 

Dick

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I want all the third party developers to talk to each other and hire a conference room for a week.

 

Simple things really like agree where you will dump exe and dll xml entries instead of dumping them in both program data and app data.

 

If your going to use .Net or visual stop blaming each other like we have now.

 

And finally agree to stop releasing thing with out testing them Together like aerosoft and gsx scenery issues..

 

Activesky work with dovetail to get rid of wake issues on finals and windshield, so that means inviting Pete dowson fsuipc to the conference room too.

 

I know youre all Hungry to take our money, but Ohh I can but dream sowe dont have another 10 years of tweaking and headaches


 
 
 
 
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Hi tooting,

3rd party development does not necessarily mean payware. Nor does it simply mean aircraft and scenery object modelling, mesh development, sounds, skies and clouds, and water. A great deal of 3rd party development is in the tools and utilities such as Airport Design Editor, Model Converter X, and Static Aircraft Model Maker to name just a few.

 

While it is a fact of life that innovation usually happens outside of the box, developing for flight sims has no hard fast rules, different people try different techniques to get their creations to perform as designed. Sometimes groundbreaking improvements are discovered, sometimes not, because everyone's system, hardware, and other addons installed are all different and it is virtually impossible to optimize for every possible combination. Working smoothly on 7 out of 10 computers is great for 7 out of 10 simmers, but there have always been those who had to find workarounds to get this or that running.

 

Just as many developers now include wide aspect ratio cockpits, perhaps if more addons were configurable, users could tone-down or spool-up according to their own capabilities, especially scenery addons.

 

It is important to remember that many potential 3PD's of DTG's new flight sims may have never used a flight simulator. Guys who are now 18 and active in aircraft modeling for FSX (and producing some spectacular work) were 8 years old when FSX came out. It is important that they will have expert advice and the development tools which were designed by the 3PD's who have blazed the trails ahead, passed along the hard won information they have gathered, and programmed user friendly utilities for accomplishing many tasks which were formerly difficult for the beginner to medium level developer to perform. 

 

I am afraid that asking for all 3PD's to gather in a conference room is like asking all simmers to have the same computer, OS, and addons. On the other hand, that conference room exists virtually at FSDeveloper.com where meetings on all aspects of flight sim development are in progress 24-7...the Sun never sets on the FSDeveloper.com empire!

 

Cheers

Gman

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Hey Martin,

 

Hopefully more than just importing and exporting. The current P3D sdk for example has support for 3DS Max from version 7 up to 2015. There are tools for amination in fs, along with cloud tools, attachment points, shader tools and Export LOD stuff. If that could feature for blender it would be fantastic.

 

As for other modelling programs. Support for Sketchup would bring an army of new modellers in as its so easy to use, and it's easy to expand with thousands of plugins to enhance the basic package.

 

AC3D would be great as well. Easy to use, cheap at just $90 iirc and X plane developers love it.

 

Then there's unity which is free to non enterprise users, and could like Sketchup encourage new creators into the system.

 

Thank you Jess. There are so many modeling programs out there. 

 

Does anyone else use one that we might have missed? 

 

- Martin 

Hi Martin.

 

If you really want to see the scope of developers for FS9 and FSX (all of whom would be interested in Flight Simulator development) You need to visit fsdeveloper.com. Hundreds of developers of both freeware and commercial FS projects. It is the primary resource and community for FS9 and FSX developers. You should probably post there for insight into the community needs for Addon development.

 

Dick

 

You Sir are a genius. Thank you. 

 

- Martin 

One idea that we are currently considering is taking certain key aspects of the SDK and separating them out into dedicated tools within the sim. The two areas we are thinking about to start with would be a mission creator and livery editor. This would allow anyone who has the sim to use the tools through a graphical user interface to easily create missions and liveries. These could then be shared via Steam Workshop. Over time we would look to introduce new tools and expand the content that could be shared via Workshop. 

 

What do you think of this idea? We feel that this could be a great way to get more people started with modding and creating their own content. Over the years that follow we could add to these tools, slowly building towards a comprehensive in game editor similar to the one found in Train Simulator. The editor could replace many of the third party tools needed to create UGC at the moment and vastly streamline the process. The flip side of this is it would take time to implement all of the functions in an editor system. This means that not everything is going to be in place day one. 

 

What do you all think of this idea? In the short term it would limit what content could be created in DTG Flight Simulator, in the long run it would greatly increase the scope of what could be created, and open up the process to anyone who wanted to give it a try. 

 

- Martin 

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The two areas we are thinking about to start with would be a mission creator and livery editor. This would allow anyone who has the sim to use the tools through a graphical user interface to easily create missions and liveries.

 

This is great. :smile:
A powerful tool with a graphical intuitive user interface will be able to include many more users (with less computer skills). The goal must be that such a tool does not limit your creativity.

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Having in sim editors for livery and mission creation is a perfectly acceptable means of introducing the casual simmer to making their own content , the professional developer would be using Photoshop CS and working on sets of liveries and likely would make little use of these particular tools.

 

FWIW , the method LM used for SDK  access and distribution has been a model of utility and comprehensiveness. If that paradigm is followed you will have no complaints from myself or the people I work with.

 

The area where there are likely to be disconsolations is distribution, as it is the remuneration is such we only " sell " to steam that which has been thoroughly marketed before in all the other platforms, as long as the current margin exists the product selection available to Steam users will be somewhat dated,   

 

C Jodry   

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For my $.02 on the "in-sim livery editor," I don't think that's a good idea, for several reasons:

 

1) For it to be anything more than "Choose overall color" and "Enter text for Aircraft Registration ID," you will have to duplicate Photoshop functions like Layers (to preserve rivets and other surface details), vector graphics tools (for curved shapes), and so on. Anyone who understands enough about graphics editing to make a halfway decent-looking livery already has Photoshop or an alternative like GIMP.

 

2) If you leave the livery creation to people who already have the tools, and provide an easy distribution method like Steam Workshop, you will have higher quality liveries for the initial plane releases. First impressions matter. I don't think it would help to flood the Workshop with a ton of badly done or just too basic-looking liveries from a limited in-sim editor.

 

3) The most important reason not to do this (IMO) is the opportunity cost in not working on other areas of the sim like sky and weather effects, clouds, the ground textures, etc. Every programmer hour spent on an in-sim livery editor is work that isn't going into something else.

 

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X-Plane and Microsoft Flight Simulator on Windows 10 
i7 6700 4.0 GHz, 32 GB RAM, GTX 1660 ti, 1920x1200 monitor

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Hi Martin.

 

I would also not recommend in-simulator tools. Far better to just provide tools and info as the Lockheed-Martin P3D, and provide a bit more info as to file structures. We have plenty of tool makers. We just need the basics to build on. I'm guessing you're still using resample, shp2vec, bglcomp, the 3dsMax toolkit. Just pass those along as they were in FSX or P3D. As a group, we'd rather not spend time back-engineering. If you release tools and info over time, that's exactly what would happen. I think Raimondo Taburet has already done this with Flight School scenery, and is selling some addons... Share what tools and info you have and the developer community will quickly develop products (both commercial and freeware). And addons will drive more sales for the simulator.

 

As far as mission-building goes, I believe you had Jim Keir on staff for Flight School, if so, you do have the expert. If he can get a comprehensive in-game mission builder going, it certainly would work.

 

Dick

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I have used SDK together with Airport design editor to create new airports or modify default airports. (for my personal use).

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For my $.02 on the "in-sim livery editor," I don't think that's a good idea, for several reasons:

 

1) For it to be anything more than "Choose overall color" and "Enter text for Aircraft Registration ID," you will have to duplicate Photoshop functions like Layers (to preserve rivets and other surface details), vector graphics tools (for curved shapes), and so on. Anyone who understands enough about graphics editing to make a halfway decent-looking livery already has Photoshop or an alternative like GIMP.

 

2) If you leave the livery creation to people who already have the tools, and provide an easy distribution method like Steam Workshop, you will have higher quality liveries for the initial plane releases. First impressions matter. I don't think it would help to flood the Workshop with a ton of badly done or just too basic-looking liveries from a limited in-sim editor.

 

3) The most important reason not to do this (IMO) is the opportunity cost in not working on other areas of the sim like sky and weather effects, clouds, the ground textures, etc. Every programmer hour spent on an in-sim livery editor is work that isn't going into something else.

I have to agree 110% with everything stated here. Please give the passionate hobbyist and professional developers highly robust tools with the breadth and depth that will modernize and extend the Dovetail platform. For most that are keen on developing, they love the challenge of creating. Please give these dedicated creatives the ability to surprise and delight the community with what they can do. They will be able to accomplish so much for the platform than we can't even imagine. 


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REX AccuSeason Developer

REX Simulations

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When I tried to modify the FSX content several years ago, I found the SDK is not user friendly as most are command based. Luckily there are some great freeware out there. I used Airport Design Editor to adjust and add airports. I main focused on scenery. I used FSX KML to add roads, bridges, utility line, and modified landclass and waterclass. I got great result from FSX KML. I then used SbuilderX, that replaced FSX KML, to create scenery. When creating scenery, it is important for the program to access to online satellite images, and SbuilderX is able to load Google Map on the fly. However, the software is a bit slow, the UI is not great, as it required several mouse clicks to modify something. 

 

One of the most important element in FSX scenery is the 'generic building'. With SbuilderX and 'generic building', I can quickly create huge amount of factories, warehouse, apartment, office block... in very short time, all with accurate size and height.

 

I don't think ADE and SbuilderX will work with the new DTG flight sim. I really hope DTG can provide user with a user friendly software that can easily modify the scenery/airport (something like the XP10 World Editor).

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The FSX SDK tools are very primitive, but the advantage is that lots of great user-friendly third party applications can be built which then call the primitive SDK compilers. This has been a big win in the long run, but even better would be to have open, documented file formats and even libraries (DLL's) and API's to help read and write simulator data files.

 

 

 


I don't think ADE and SbuilderX will work with the new DTG flight sim.

 

Probably not if DTG is changing the file formats, but I hope DTG will work with the ADE developer to make sure ADE can work with the new flight sim. SBX seems no longer maintained so not much hope there but I'm sure the community has people that will like to create some new tools, maybe built as extensions to a free GIS tool such as QGIS.

 

Please also make sure that compilers such as resample continue to support common input file formats for GIS data.


Barry Friedman

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SBuilderX will work with Flight Simulator if the same format and names of the command line tools is the same. Likewise ADE will most likely then work as well. SBuilderX works with Flight School and with MS Flight, as well as P3d.

 

Dick

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