Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
riccardo74

Which is your tecnique to land MD11 manually (no A/P no A/T)?

Recommended Posts

What fantastic posts from all three, Rick, Wilhelm and Greg. By far the best reading here in Avsim for ages.

 

Thank you.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MD11 is a great aircaft to fly, it's a shame we won't fly a new PMDG version.

 

@Ric D: thanks so much for your clear explanation, the next approach I'll follow your step and report back. One thing....it's a normal habit to extend slat just passed 10000'?


Riccardo

OS: Windows 10-64 bit, CPU: i7-7700K @4.20 GHz, GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 G1 8GB GDDR5, RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR4 32GB 3000MHz, MB: MSI Z270

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


it's a normal habit to extend slat just passed 10000'?

 

The thing about it is that the plane doesn't like to slow down and go down. Clean you can only get about 1500 feet per minute below 10,000 and keep 250. Having the slats out creates a little more drag allowing more slowing capability. Normally you don't use lift devices as drag devices, but it works. They have a 270kt speed limit so 250 is not a problem. Our descent speed was .82 then 320. If you are behind, you would go speed brakes, slats below 270, trade slats for flaps 15 below 250 and flaps 22 below 220. So i normally set 1300 feet per minute at 13,000 to slow from 320 and reach 250 by 10,000. Drop slats and ride 250 until on approach course intercept. on intercept slow to 180 selecting 22/28 below 220. Should keep you consistently on pace. Too late and you won't be able to slow her on approach. Once too fast, she will carry that speed.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Rick D

 

You should drafted a Tutorial for the ubiquitous MD-11. This is by far better than what the Tutorial that comes with the aircraft covers. Once more, you floor us with such in-depth knowledge. A real insight into descent and approach control.

 

But then to give you credit, you have flown this bird in R/W. What better tutor.

 

Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rick Almeida is right! Rick D you have to write a tutorial for '11! With this techniue is all another way to fly this aircraft.

 

Another question....did you noted all our names report Ric and we all love this great airplane?


Riccardo

OS: Windows 10-64 bit, CPU: i7-7700K @4.20 GHz, GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 G1 8GB GDDR5, RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR4 32GB 3000MHz, MB: MSI Z270

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen,

Thank you so much for all of your fine comments. One thing to point out is that I have never flown the MD11 R/W. I was stating before that I fly the MD11 like I did the R/W DC10. Either way there isn't much difference. A few of my buddies went on to FEDEX and flew the MD11. They say it pretty much flys the same, just more power, weight and augmented control systems. Even the speeds are similar at same weights. I flew the KC-10A and DC-10-30. The techniques I gave you works very well with the MD11 and R/W MD11. I did attempt to join PMDGs test team when the MD11 was announced, but I was never accepted. Maybe I will design a good training flight for you guys that include some Proficiency items to get you familiar with the jet. I'll throw in good tips through out it.

 

Rick 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Rick D

 

Thanks for the clarifications, but as you say, there is not great deal of differences in the flight envelope of both aircraft,and moreover, you have exchanged views with your FedEx colleagues now on the MD-11, so that is valuable research.

 

Pity you did not get taken on my the PMDG test team, but they will have their own criteria.

 

Nevertheless, I for one very much look forward to a good training tutorial and proficiency stuff from you as I very much doubt as most of the PMDG MD-11 owners do so, that we will ever see an upgrade from the current model. So, as there is no other model forthcoming over the horizon, we may as well improve our techniques.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


A few of my buddies went on to FEDEX and flew the MD11. They say it pretty much flys the same, just more power, weight and augmented control systems. Even the speeds are similar at same weights

 

Rick,

 

The speeds are similar, except faster as it is normally heavier, at least in the freighter world.  The biggest difference is down at the bottom, where it is unforgiving and must be flown precisely.

 

To quote a former F/O on the MD-11 - "It's like my ex, fun to fly, but unforgiving." :smile:

 

blaustern


I Earned My Spurs in Vietnam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the PMDG MD-11 the easiest of all their planes to land.  The 747 being a close second.  No offense to those who struggle.


- Chris

Gigabyte Z790 Aorus Elite AX | Intel Core i9 13900KF | Gigabyte GeForce RTX 4090 24 GB | 64GB DDR5 SDRAM | Corsair H100i Elite 240mm Liquid Cooling | 1TB & 2TB Samsung Gen 4 SSD  | 1000 Watt Gold PSU |  Windows 11 Pro | Thrustmaster Boeing Yoke | Thrustmaster TCA Captain X Airbus | Asus ROG 38" 4k IPS Monitor (PG38UQ)

Asus Maximus VII Hero motherboard | Intel i7 4790k CPU | MSI GTX 970 4 GB video card | Corsair DDR3 2133 32GB SDRAM | Corsair H50 water cooler | Samsung 850 EVO 250GB SSD (2) | EVGA 1000 watt PSU - Retired

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys, I tired to land completely manually following what Ric said. The first problem I found is weight and its percentage. I use Kg and not Pounds, so I think it's not possible to add simply a 10% to your landing weight, in my case was 189.000 kg, so 19+27=46% N1, it's a bit too low. Infact I tried to watch N1 value during and AUTOLAND and it was about 58-60%.

 

Disconnecting only AP and following the GS with AT on I found more difficulties, I couldn't maintain GS, most of the times tended to get above or under GS and so I applied stab trim to try center the GS.

 

With AP and AT off I found a bit more easy to land, but have to continuosly trim the aircraft when increase/decrease N1. Some times happen that aircraft enter in protection mode (LSAS?), N1 increase rapidly to 100% and more, and start climbing. The easy way to keep airctaft on GS path is to follow the FD, but is it correct to center it using stab trim or appling column to pitch down or up?


Riccardo

OS: Windows 10-64 bit, CPU: i7-7700K @4.20 GHz, GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 G1 8GB GDDR5, RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR4 32GB 3000MHz, MB: MSI Z270

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Riccardo

 

If you are using kg as weight you need to use 22% of gross weight to achieve the same result. ( 1kg = 2.2 lbs approx). As Rick said you should practice with A/T on and note the N1 required and then create your own rule of thumb.

 

If you are unable to hold the G/S manually flying then it is your technique that is at fault. What are you using to control the elevators... yoke or joystick ? Is it properly calibrated ?  Using stab trim to fly a glideslope is not the way to go. If your pitch changes with increase/decrease in engine power you should be using the elevator to maintain your desired vertical path, not the trim. The model has auto-trim, have a read up in the manual how it works.

 

If the protection mode kicks in it indicates you have allowed the aircraft to slow below the speed protection threshold. You should be descending on the glideslope at about 160 kias, slowing to VREF+ margin a few miles out.


Peter Schluter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


The easy way to keep airctaft on GS path is to follow the FD, but is it correct to center it using stab trim or appling column to pitch down or up?

 

Greetings again,

The issues you mention are all associated with stability. Once on the path, you want things to be stable. The end result is a nice relaxed posture with minor corrections along the path. First thing to lock into your mind is that power changes will change pitch. There is a big three to contend with when dealing with stability. Pitch, power and speed. A change in any one of these items will have an effect and require some in the other. Once you are all set on approach, these three items work together to maintain that path. Rule #1, jet aircraft are creatures of momentum. In the upcoming tutorial, i will go in detail about momentum. Right now, just remember that the heavier the aircraft, the more momentum/inertia you have. In simple words, more resistance to change. A good understanding of this effect will allow you to better deal with the issue. So I'll give you some quick tips to help you handle your problems.

 

1. Stable power setting: The power technique I gave you deals with pounds. You could convert your KGs or come up with your own based on KG. Stable power is key. Out of the three items I mentioned, power is most susceptible to momentum. In the old days of pitch and power, it was easy. In our days of jet aircraft, you want to set and forget power. For stable power, use a setting that gets you in the ball park of approach speed.You then add teaks only when needed.  Some of the other jets I've flown used fuel flow techniques. Either way, N1 or fuel flow works great. Tweaks should only be made when required. So when tweaking, I use wrist twist. You wiggle in power then wait a few secs. If it doesn't respond or a negative trend continues, wiggle in more. Once the jet responds and starts to correct, take half of the total input you wiggled in out. As you approach your target speed, take half of the half out. When fine tuning, I use knobs of power. Take the knob at the top of a throttle. When making corrections, advance the throttles by a whole knob width/length or half of a knob.  The theme here is slow correction, and that applies to every aspect of jet flying. This tip will keep your power stable, large throttle movements induces pitch changes.

 

2. Speed control: This goes hand and hand with stable power. Use stable power to maintain speed control. The key here is being ahead of the jet. If you are flying 140kts, and notice that you are trending on a increase towards 145. Initially, be patient. Only respond to trends. In turbulence the speed may jump around. Ignore it unless you have a slowing or increasing trend. Once you notice a trend, then use the knobs of power technique. Instantaneous speed changes may leave just as quickly as they came. So don't chase speed until you notice a trend. The MD11 also give you speed trend information, use it. When making speed changes, again, knobs of power. The change should be slow. Stay ahead of configuration changes. Lead them. When adding slats/flaps, start a slowing trend. Most likely you are adding these devices to fly slower any way. Use knobs to control a steady decel, and use knobs to capture your target speed. When dropping the gear, Use knobs of power ahead as you drop the handle. May take one knob, one and a half or two. Notice how speed control is all about stability and slow correction.

 

3. Glidepath/slope: Now pitch and power guys will preach moving that power lol. In props, that worked well. A change in power on a prop caused instantaneous lift by inducing flow over the wings. Unless you are in a blown flap type jet, its not the case. As I said, jockeying power leads to other issues. By the time the jet responds in glide path, you are fast. Trim up the aircraft while on approach. A properly trimmed aircraft wants to stay on the path naturally. You should be relaxed with one hand on the throttles and one on the yoke. All you are doing is making small inputs at this point. If you are a little low, add just a little back pressure on the yoke(small pitch change) for a smooth controlled correction. as you approach the path, relax the pressure on the yoke. The jet will naturally return to a good path because you properly trimmed it to fly the path. You will be a little slow, but your stable power setting will naturally put you back on speed. If high, add some light forward pressure. You will gain a couple of knots, but as you relax and correct back, that good power setting will have you back on speed. Notice how every thing I've mentioned is about slow correction. 

 

No matter if its course, path, speed or power, these techniques aim for slow correction. Never rush to correct back, just get a correcting trend. Let me know how it goes. I hope to start the guide tonight.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


No matter if its course, path, speed or power, these techniques aim for slow correction. Never rush to correct back, just get a correcting trend. Let me know how it goes. I hope to start the guide tonight

 

Rick,

 

I'm an ol' B707 guy and some of my past continues to follow me.  When flying manually I still like crossing the fence at Vref+20 followed by a gradual power reduction.  Always smooth and stable inside the OM. :smile:

 

blaustern


I Earned My Spurs in Vietnam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks a lot Peter, it's my fault to consider trim as technique to follow the glide. If I well understand I have to use elevator (via MD11 column), so my joystick (yes it's calibrated via fsuipc), to maintain the glide path and at the same time to decrease or increase power if I am above or below the magenta G/S.

 

I thought that after AP and AT disconnection you has to decrease/increase power and use elevetor trim up or down at the same time.

Rick thanks so much, you are great man!

 

And it's a great news to know your writing down the tutorial, thanks so much again.


Riccardo

OS: Windows 10-64 bit, CPU: i7-7700K @4.20 GHz, GPU: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1080 G1 8GB GDDR5, RAM: Corsair Vengeance DDR4 32GB 3000MHz, MB: MSI Z270

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 so my joystick (yes it's calibrated via fsuipc),

 

 

 

Ok here is an important point.

 

For most aircraft I use in the sim I assign and calibrate through FSUIPC using the "send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" option in FSUIPC. I also select "disable oystick" in the sim (FS9.1). This works best for me.

 

However, the MD-11 has a well modelled LSAS system. I have found (in FS9 at least) that for it to function at its best it needs to get its elevator and aileron inputs from the sim itself. For this reason when assigning elevator and aileron axes, you should use the following method:

 

1. Select "send to FS as normal axis" option in FSUIPC

2. Calibrate from within FSUIPC

3. within the sim itself ensure you have either: deleted any aileron/elevator axes or selected "disable joystick"

 

This method should ensure you get the best response from those axes and take full advantage of the PMDG modelled LSAS system.


Peter Schluter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
×
×
  • Create New...