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Simheaven w2xp sceneries + the new autogen

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Hello all,

 

I'm a bit confused. Basically, I installed the European mixed version of SimHeavens sceneries and it looks great. Far more European whilst flying in Europe. I just don't really understands quite what is happening!

 

So when I get this download, it re positions towns etc based on more accurate data (which is partially crowd sourced?) and on top of that, it draws the correctly positioned towns using the models I downloaded (i.e the r_2 lib, open scenery, Europe library). Is this correct?

 

Does this also mean that once XP 10.50 comes out I won't see any of their new autogen? Is the w2xp pre build scenery from simheaven superior to the new default autogen?

 

Many thanks, I have read through the docs but I wasn't entirely sure!

 

 

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"Mixed" means that X-Plane autogen will fill up the holes that exist in OSM scenery. In these holes, you will see the new 10.50 autogen.

 

I recommend you to skip stuff from SimHeaven. The Europe Library has very bad LOD parameters, bad performance and causes micro-stutters on many systems (tested this exhaustingly).

 

The OSM sceneries, while they do enable a more authentic depiction of towns and cities, they also are a drag on performance, as this data was never meant to be used in a game engine (it is for maps), and thus is unoptimized to be used in such way. It's very easy to mess up your sim using unoptimized hobby "products".

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"Mixed" means that X-Plane autogen will fill up the holes that exist in OSM scenery. In these holes, you will see the new 10.50 autogen.

 

I recommend you to skip stuff from SimHeaven. The Europe Library has very bad LOD parameters, bad performance and causes micro-stutters on many systems (tested this exhaustingly).

 

The OSM sceneries, while they do enable a more authentic depiction of towns and cities, they also are a drag on performance, as this data was never meant to be used in a game engine (it is for maps), and thus is unoptimized to be used in such way. It's very easy to mess up your sim using unoptimized hobby "products".

 You're right - on my system I am down to 10fps in places with those sceneries..Damn!

 

I really wish 10.50 was out on steam. I am so desperate for the new autogen!

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"Mixed" means that X-Plane autogen will fill up the holes that exist in OSM scenery. In these holes, you will see the new 10.50 autogen.

 

I recommend you to skip stuff from SimHeaven. The Europe Library has very bad LOD parameters, bad performance and causes micro-stutters on many systems (tested this exhaustingly).

 

The OSM sceneries, while they do enable a more authentic depiction of towns and cities, they also are a drag on performance, as this data was never meant to be used in a game engine (it is for maps), and thus is unoptimized to be used in such way. It's very easy to mess up your sim using unoptimized hobby "products".

 

Which versions would you recommend? The tool is no longer available is it as far as im aware?

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Which versions would you recommend? The tool is no longer available is it as far as im aware?

 

Well I can't recommend any OSM add-on unless a real developer would optimize it for usage within X-Plane, in terms of performance and looks (for example add textures, LIT textures and such) - making it a real scenery product instead of a free, tentative download. The non-mixed versions (which give better but still bad performance) are still available from the same site as far as I am concerned, but as described above, the will leave you with big holes in cities where no OSM data exists.

 

I recommend vanilla X-Plane 10.50 with HD Mesh V3.

 

Check these shots: http://www.avsim.com/topic/492023-us-cities-in-x-plane-1050/

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Well I can't recommend any OSM add-on unless a real developer would optimize it for usage within X-Plane, in terms of performance and looks (for example add textures, LIT textures and such) - making it a real scenery product instead of a free, tentative download. The non-mixed versions (which give better but still bad performance) are still available from the same site as far as I am concerned, but as described above, the will leave you with big holes in cities where no OSM data exists.

 

I recommend vanilla X-Plane 10.50 with HD Mesh V3.

 

Check these shots: http://www.avsim.com/topic/492023-us-cities-in-x-plane-1050/

I'm following your advice and downloading all the HD Mesh V3 tiles and will stick with vanilla XP10 with Skymaxx Pro 3. Do you have any idea at all when the 10.50 client will be available on Steam? I'm of course happy to wait but am curious about the time line.

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Well I can't recommend any OSM add-on unless a real developer would optimize it for usage within X-Plane,

Not sure if I should take offence by that or not, but I am a real developer and the last sceneries I did are as much optimised as I believe is possible :/. If you want accurate scenery (1 to 1 buildings) then you are going to need a good machine to run it, or start turning down your settings.

 

OSM can contain a lot of data, and some of the more detailed areas will have individual trees and lamp posts mapped. Older versions of W2XP (Simheaven use 0.7.2) even tried to use roof colours, but this ended producing far too many varieties of buildings, resulting in bad loading times. I switched off this level of detail when I generate my own sceneries and performance is far better.

 

Also mixing both this along with X-Plane's autogen is a big burden on the system. I'd recommend you use either one of the other, but not both.

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I recommend you to skip stuff from SimHeaven. The Europe Library has very bad LOD parameters, bad performance and causes micro-stutters on many systems (tested this exhaustingly).

 

 

What  do you recommend we download for Europe instead ?

 

Thanks

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There is nothing else. Until Laminar Research start creating autogen for Europe, you are stuck with the American look everywhere. 10.50 is good if you fly in the US, but I haven't seen a massive improvement elsewhere.

 

If you want good performance and generally fly above 3000ft, go with photoscenery if you have disk space and patience to download or create it. 

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Not sure if I should take offence by that or not, but I am a real developer and the last sceneries I did are as much optimised as I believe is possible :/. If you want accurate scenery (1 to 1 buildings) then you are going to need a good machine to run it, or start turning down your settings.

 

OSM can contain a lot of data, and some of the more detailed areas will have individual trees and lamp posts mapped. Older versions of W2XP (Simheaven use 0.7.2) even tried to use roof colours, but this ended producing far too many varieties of buildings, resulting in bad loading times. I switched off this level of detail when I generate my own sceneries and performance is far better.

 

Also mixing both this along with X-Plane's autogen is a big burden on the system. I'd recommend you use either one of the other, but not both.

 

Hello Tony,

Is your tool still available to use? I'd like to try it out with all my Ortho4XP ive generated.

Thanks

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exactly what this dude says! 

 

I was about to write basically a word by word description of OSM

 

 

if you value your FPS , stay away from it

 

 

"Mixed" means that X-Plane autogen will fill up the holes that exist in OSM scenery. In these holes, you will see the new 10.50 autogen.

 

I recommend you to skip stuff from SimHeaven. The Europe Library has very bad LOD parameters, bad performance and causes micro-stutters on many systems (tested this exhaustingly).

 

The OSM sceneries, while they do enable a more authentic depiction of towns and cities, they also are a drag on performance, as this data was never meant to be used in a game engine (it is for maps), and thus is unoptimized to be used in such way. It's very easy to mess up your sim using unoptimized hobby "products".

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Not sure if I should take offence by that or not, but I am a real developer and the last sceneries I did are as much optimised as I believe is possible :/. If you want accurate scenery (1 to 1 buildings) then you are going to need a good machine to run it, or start turning down your settings.

 

OSM can contain a lot of data, and some of the more detailed areas will have individual trees and lamp posts mapped. Older versions of W2XP (Simheaven use 0.7.2) even tried to use roof colours, but this ended producing far too many varieties of buildings, resulting in bad loading times. I switched off this level of detail when I generate my own sceneries and performance is far better.

 

Also mixing both this along with X-Plane's autogen is a big burden on the system. I'd recommend you use either one of the other, but not both.

 

No offence Tony! By "real developer" I meant a company has the means to create a commercial product out of OSM data. There's no free lunch, remember. You are totally right though, if you want 1:1 buildings, prepare for a sideshow. Same goes for trees I guess.

 

I wonder if your sceneries are available somewhere? Or did you just create your own with W2XP? I take it you're not associated with SimHeaven? I think it would be great to have a "VRF relevant objects only" version of OSM, you know TV towers, wind turbines and the like ONLY to add to the regular autogen. But then even the SimHeaven sceneries don't even feature those objects, so I lost hope.

 

I think it's worthless not to mix with autogen. I flew over my town and there were big holes in the town. Immersion killer, instant uninstall.

 

 

 

What  do you recommend we download for Europe instead ?

 

Thanks

 

There's nothing as of now, unfortunately except for HD Mesh V3. Since 10.50 features a lot more "large buildings" or 1950s+ high rises, depiction of inner cities in Europe will get a little better even with US autogen, since the dominating architectural style in that period was "International Style" - in Europe and the US.

 

 

 

I'm following your advice and downloading all the HD Mesh V3 tiles and will stick with vanilla XP10 with Skymaxx Pro 3. Do you have any idea at all when the 10.50 client will be available on Steam? I'm of course happy to wait but am curious about the time line.

 

My guess is around 2 months from now.

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I can only speak for myself, but depiction of my hometown and some surrounding European cities is from 0 to 100 between naked XP and World2XP. Actually the representation using World2XP (+ HD Mesh) is by far the best among all consumer simulators I know todate, including full ORBX stuff under Prepar3d (which may or may not change when ORBX Germany will be released). 

 

The US may be another story, but even there I find World2XP an improvement.

 

Kind regards, Michael

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I wonder if your sceneries are available somewhere? Or did you just create your own with W2XP? I take it you're not associated with SimHeaven? I think it would be great to have a "VRF relevant objects only" version of OSM, you know TV towers, wind turbines and the like ONLY to add to the regular autogen. But then even the SimHeaven sceneries don't even feature those objects, so I lost hope.

 

The application can be configured just to add in what you want, so if you only want wind turbines then you can just make a scenery for that .The issue I have is that not many people read the instructions that come with the app and don't realise that:

 

- If you give it garbage data, you'll get garbage back out. A lot of OSM is not very good quality, and some if it is excellent.

- You are free to choose the models, LODS and almost everything you want by modifying the config and regenerating the scenery. The default config file is pretty nasty and heavy and should be configured to suit the area you are generating.

 

I gave up developing the application for this reason. People were expecting it to produce ORBX scenery out of the box, and to get good results you need to fix and experiment, and it can be time consuming. I was getting a little tired of being blamed for trees on a runway and other issues which could be fixed by reading the instructions and using the application as a development tool and not a magic scenery solution :-)

 

Simheaven use W2XP to produce their sceneries and they also have modified and added a lot of their own artwork and rules as well. I am not involved in creating these sceneries, but I'm glad they do it as it means most people can just download and get the scenery instead of trying to make it theirselves. Unfortunately I still get lots of emails thinking I am Simheaven and I manage those sceneries, and whilst I do stay in touch now and then with the site admin, I am not involved or responsible for the site.

 

All my stuff is on x-plane.org under the World2XPlane section. The Norway and Denmark sceneries are using my own unreleased version of W2XP and I don't use OSM data alone. The data is cleaned up a lot and they are far more optimised (having less lego buildings and more instancing friendly models). You should get better performance than the Europe sceneries, but there is still a lot of data there (The Norway one is autogened using address points). If you're using a helicopter or C172 then you'll like these sceneries, but if you are flying over in a 737 then such scenery is pointless.


 

 


Hello Tony,
Is your tool still available to use? I'd like to try it out with all my Ortho4XP ive generated.
Thanks

 

Yep, there is an old version on x-plane.org in the World2XPlane section. You may need to hunt around on YouTube for tutorials though as I no longer have my old site.

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Thanks for clearing things up, Tony. I will have a shot at generating a VFR-Objects OSM scenery one of these days. I like reading the small print and hacking-the-hell-out of the X-Plane tools we have.

 

I think once Laminar gets around creating Europe autogen (they are committed to that now that US is almost "done" and frankly it's not such a big thing after all), most of these issues will resolve just by updating X-Plane.

 

The BIG step will be to have an airport gateway type of approach to actual landmarks. People creating famous landmarks and uploading them to Laminar for them to roll them out for all users. It's not trivial since "lego bricks" can't build the Statue of Liberty, but I think some type of standardized approach can me implemented.

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I recommend you to skip stuff from SimHeaven. The Europe Library has very bad LOD parameters, bad performance and causes micro-stutters on many systems (tested this exhaustingly).

 

I'm going to have to agree with you on this. I was only using the Europe Library without the W2XP and I was getting 25 fps in London City. Today after reading your comment I ran it without Europe Library and with same settings and I get 50+ fps. Won't be using the Europe Library anymore. Thanks for sharing.

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I gave up developing the application for this reason. People were expecting it to produce ORBX scenery out of the box, and to get good results you need to fix and experiment, and it can be time consuming. I was getting a little tired of being blamed for trees on a runway and other issues which could be fixed by reading the instructions and using the application as a development tool and not a magic scenery solution :-)

 

Well Tony, I can perfectly understand your reasons for letting it go. That would indeed be frustrating. I do sincerely hope that you know that for many of us, your efforts have improved the simulator to a level I wouldn't consider flying without.

 

For me, in the Canadian regions I prefer to fly, the difference between OSM scenery (I use the Simheaven compiled W2XP scenery) and default XP scenery is night and day. I get to see my house (and detached garage) in the OSM based scenery; in default XP, I don't even get to see my section of the city. Quite simply, if it were not for the OSM based scenery available only because YOU created the tool for it to be made, I would still be doing the bulk of my flying in FSX and/or P3D. Or, very likely considering the issues I've had with those platforms, I might simply not be flying any sim at all.

 

~~~~

 

If that sounds like a rousing endorsement for OSM based products like W2XP, or for creating your own OSM based scenery via Tony's excellent tool, it's because it is. I think sometimes the W2XP scenery gets a bad rap because Europe is such a performance hog due to the overwhelming amount of data it contains. On the North American side of the pond, if your region has good coverage in OSM, and yet is a normal, sparsely populated (compared to Europe) part of NA, then OSM scenery really can't be beat.

 

~~~~

 

Also, I think that the whole spirit of XP is truly underpinned by user created solutions. There's a place for commercial developers for sure, but the extremely rich freeware scene (perhaps epitomized by the official 'crowd-sourcing' of gateway airports) is one of the key attractions of the platform for many users. To suggest that one is better to wait for a 'real' product optimized by a 'commercial' developer, rather than to enjoy one of the many free enhancements to the platform created by people who are doing it purely out of enjoyment is simply... I don't know. I just don't know. It makes me a bit sad.

 

After all, there's no harm in trying something when it doesn't have a cost attached. if it doesn't work, delete it! Try something else! Make your own! The point is, there's no need to wait for a commercial developer to bring something to market when we have the ability to create things ourselves, and the things created by others as a labour of love and then freely shared can serve to fill extremely niche areas that no commercial developer would ever touch.

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Thanks for the kind words Jim, and I hope we continue to keep the open community and freeware spirit going for X-Plane. I won't argue that we don't need better payware aircraft, but I think scenery-wise, it's going to be a hard sell in some areas with the amount of high quality freeware seen lately. Also, it's really amazing seeing the effort users are putting in to populate all the airports (I see groups doing Germany and UK at the moment). I know these are lego-brick airports, but people are willing to put in the time and share their work to improve the sim and compared to flat lifeless landscape we had when 10 came out, there is a big difference. It would be such a huge shame to see everything go payware like in FSX/P3D (which also doesn't mean it's going to be better)

 

I did make some custom autogen sceneries and also updated W2XP to place autogen instead of using exclusions, but it didn't go down well. People complained that they hated autogen and wanted to keep the 1-1 buildings. So some like it, some hate it :-).  Norway Pro is mostly autogen with obstacles but placed around address points so it's accurate and lines up with photoscenery very nicely. It performs far better than W2XP scenery and is the best way forward at the moment until the technology catches up. I am currently fixing a pile of bugs with roads and leafy airports for the update to GB Pro (where I am scrapping world-models and all the other libraries so I can create more efficient instancing friendly models).

 

Personally, I think anyone who tries to sell OSM scenery is going to have a hard time. There are issues with the data and it's very inconsistent. A company or person would either have to clean it all up (and give back to the community for free as per the OSM license) or use other data sources (and good and cheap data is hard to find, believe me I've searched and searched). I have seen numerous cases of people selling W2XP or OSM2XP scenery in their own packages when the license prohibits it, so there is always someone who is going to try :-).

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I whole heartedly support Jim's comments and find Simheaven's photoscenery combined with W2XP works a treat. I am lucky to have a modern rig on which to run this load, so your mileage will vary depending on this and other factors. It's nice that each simmer has a free choice about what works best.

 

One question Tony: if I have World Models Library installed, do I get any extra benefit from having Europe Library installed as well? Will Europe Library help XPL render auto gen where there is no OSM?

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No, the only thing it does it change the existing autogen artwork into more European style, but it doesn't add or take anything away from the scenery.

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Also, I think that the whole spirit of XP is truly underpinned by user created solutions. There's a place for commercial developers for sure, but the extremely rich freeware scene (perhaps epitomized by the official 'crowd-sourcing' of gateway airports) is one of the key attractions of the platform for many users. To suggest that one is better to wait for a 'real' product optimized by a 'commercial' developer, rather than to enjoy one of the many free enhancements to the platform created by people who are doing it purely out of enjoyment is simply... I don't know. I just don't know. It makes me a bit sad.

 

Jimmy I totally agree with your view on the freeware scene. It's just that when you're used to commercial products, "videogames", it's sometimes hard to adjust to the rough edges in X-Plane. I love the fact that one can configure X-Plane to his personal preference (I have been optimizing my install for years, dealing with every aspect of the sim). Sometimes though, I'd be more than happy to shell out a few bucks to get a more polished version of stuff that is available for free. These "rough edges" are also something that turns off potential new users (which X-Plane desperately needs).

 

I think the solution would be that Laminar would switch to a subscription based model (something like $99 a year), to build a cash flow that enables them to hire more developers and artists, eventually speeding up the whole process of "getting there".

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Simheaven (w2xp) + orthosceneries in Europe = 30+ fps with the IXEG B737. 

 

It's beautiful. You should try it. 

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I can only speak for myself, but depiction of my hometown and some surrounding European cities is from 0 to 100 between naked XP and World2XP. Actually the representation using World2XP (+ HD Mesh) is by far the best among all consumer simulators I know todate, including full ORBX stuff under Prepar3d (which may or may not change when ORBX Germany will be released). 

 

The US may be another story, but even there I find World2XP an improvement.

 

Kind regards, Michael

I agree with you. The W2XP-sceneries are absolutely amazing! No comparaiosn with the default ones. And the framerates in the default US-sceneries aren't better than with the ones from W2Xp for Europe...I dont understand the complains from other users.

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I agree! World2XP EU & Mesh v3 are an excellent combination. Smooth simulation and xp 10.50 b7 loads fast. Very happy simmer. :wub:

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